Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[wmfights]

Now - completely off topic - prayer request. My daughter-in-law recently learned she is pregnant. She has been vomiting from time to time. Tonight she called, saying my son is trying to prevent her from eating odd things "because it will make you sick"!

Done!

Congratulations. Is this your first grandchild?

[Forest Keeper]

[From Warfield:] ............ I say that it is more accurate to say that we will not admit that we are controlled. For we are controlled, whether we admit it or not. To imagine that we are not controlled is to imagine that there is no God. For when we say God, we say control. If a single creature which God has made has escaped beyond his control, at the moment that he has done so he has abolished God. A God who could or would make a creature whom he could not or would not control, is no God. The moment he should make such a creature he would, of course, abdicate his throne. The universe he had created would have ceased to be his universe; or rather it would cease to exist-for the universe is held together only by the control of God.

That statement presupposes that our actions signify something outside God's control -- which is false.

Warfield is saying that if someone held that our actions could be outside of God's control, then that person is either wrong or there is no Biblical God. So, Warfield would agree with the intent of your first sentence, as I perceive it.

For God, His control is the ability he's given us to choose. He doesn't micromanage, yet He has His plan for mankind. If Hitler choose to be evil, that does not negate God's plan, nor does it mean God cannot come down "deus-ex-machina" and resolve things, but that would remove our free will.

The key question to answer is whether God gives us the ability to choose against His will. Warfield (and other Reformers) would say that if we answer "yes" then that is beyond God's control and Warfield's implications would come to be. We cannot just say that God's control is giving us freedom, and then stop right there. We must explore the nature of that freedom.

So, with the Hitler example, would we say that what Hitler did was part of God's plan all along, OR, would we say that God's giving Hitler free will meant that the "rule" was that Hitler could do anything he wanted and God wouldn't interfere, even if it disagreed with God's plan, because the "rule" said Hitler was free? If we say the latter then Warfield and we would say that's elevating man's will above God's and the implication of that would be that our God is no god at all.

A similar argument would apply if we said that God's plan was simply to roll with the punches of human decisions and deal with history as we gave it to Him. That would also be God abdicating His control and ceasing to be God.

A creator cannot be sovereign and moral if he gives up control over his creation. Warfield is saying that if God actually DID give people the kind of freedom that many suppose they do have, then it would actually be a sign of immorality and that God did not love His creation.

[wmfights]

If you had read the website you would see that the Roman Catholics who run the site said the Legion of Mary is approved by the Vatican.

Are these the folks that wear the brown thing around their neck so Mary will get them out of purgatory sooner?

[caww]

Again.......”to eat of the tree of life”...or....”the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Which was a choice...a matter of ones will or will not. (I will choose this or that, or I’ll not choose this or that.)

(...Yes, but did God bail at that point? :) Did God create man with a will and then just walk away?”...

Of course he didn’t walk away....doesn’t the volume of scriptures which follow this event attest to you of that?Of course they do.

We have His Spirit within us and I for one can tell oftentimes if I’m heading in the wrong direction..it’s a sensitivity to his lead as we walk with him. He may use scripture that floods your mind, a simple warning of a cars horn when crossing the street. etc. Although I do think He does a great deal of preventive care fo us as we grow and develope in Him. Just as parents instruct and guard their children.

Look at a toddler who is walking with his parents at a mall sometime...he wanders off but generally he will keep looking back to see the face of his parent. We do that with God as well...look even at Peter who walked at a distance from Christ for a time...We do that as well as we explore the life He has given us and walk with Him in it.

Now a child may get really excited about something and race toward that without thinking or knowing of the danger ahead,the parent rushes and recues him from that danger or removes the danger. I think God does that for us but we are making decisions of the will as we go.

As the child grows and learns the differencees of life..that which is good or evil..and how to make good choices, though the dangers are still the same, he has developed the wisdom God has promised. So do we.

We learn thru a lifetime and much of it is by and from the decisions we make. I believe God is pleased with us when we make good choices, choosing His ways over the ways of the world...and yes even over the nature within we battle with. By the same token we can trust Him to guide us when life seems to be overwhelming.

We forget that oftentimes as we struggle to make the right decisions on the big things of life,.... the very struggle itself is evidence God is calibrating our decisions as we go.

I sincerely believe as Christians who love and know the Lord...that we cannot wander too far because we would miss Him too much...we return just as the prodical did and find He was waiting for us the whole time. But we did choose to return.

[wmfights]

1. the organisation is approved by the Vatican, there is no indication that the BLOGsite was/is approved by the Vatican

There's always an out isn't there.

The one thing you never hear is the RCC coming out and condemning these heresies.

[Quix]

There’s always an out isn’t there.

The one thing you never hear is the RCC coming out and condemning these heresies.

###########

INDEED.

You’ve said it much more simply and clearly than I have.

[boatbums]

I will pray for your DIL, son and grandbaby. What is she wanting to eat that your son thinks will make her sick? Cravings usually mean some nutrient is needed or just that some tastes and smells make us sicker and some make us feel better. My sister, during her pregnancy, use to eat an entire jar of olives one day and a whole watermellon the next (salt then H2O). My mom said she knew whenever she was pregnant because she couldn’t stand the smell of cigarettes, and she was a smoker unless she was pregnant (5 kids). She did quit though eventually. Just never know.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You are not only claiming that all aspects of man has fallen, that there is none righteous and none who seeks God

This is all anyone has to read to see that the trajectory of your comments are off-course.

The Arminian doesn't really believe in the totality of Fall nor its aftermath or in the Scripture you just paraphrased with skepticism.

The Arminian agrees with Rome that men's own pious actions are the determining factor in their salvation. No wonder some Roman Catholics on this forum encourage our disagreement. The Arminian does the work of Rome. And Rome applauds.

Perhaps you should read Jacobus Arminius before pretending to know about it.

lol. I've read enough to know I thank God that by His grace I don't believe as he did.

Arminianism -- False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Modern Pelagianism

ARMINIUS - HIS TEACHINGS ON POLITICS, RELIGION, AND THE SWORD OF THE STATE

The State is the Absolute Sovereign over all Natural and Spiritual affairs of Man:

The end of the institution of magistracy, is the good of the whole, and of each individual of which it is composed, both an animal [or natural] good, "that they may lead quiet and peaceable lives;" and a spiritual good, that they may live in this world, to God, and may in heaven enjoy that good, to the glory of God who is its author. For since man, according to his two-fold life, (that is, the animal and the spiritual,) stands in need of each kind of good, and is, by nature of the image of God, capable of both kinds; since two collateral powers cannot stand, and since animal good is directed to that which is spiritual, and animal life is subordinate to that which is spiritual, it is unlawful to divide those two benefits, and to separate their joint superintendence, either in reality or by the administration of the supreme authority; for, if the animal life and its good become the only objects of solicitude, such an administration is that of cattle. ~~ (Public Disputations, Disputation 25, "On Magistracy", James Arminius)

All Authority under Heaven, concerning both Natural and Spiritual matters, is concentrated in the Absolute Power of the State

The chief magistrate is not correctly denominated political or secular, because those epithets are opposed to the ecclesiastical and spiritual power. In the hands and at the disposal of the chief magistrate is placed, under God, the supreme and sovereign power of caring and providing for his subjects, and of governing them, with respect to animal and spiritual life. ~~ (Certain Articles, Article 28, "On Magistracy", James Arminius)

It is the sole and absolute duty of the State to enforce all Ten Commandments, and to enact all laws both civil and ecclesiastical, and to eradicate all Evil from society.

The matter, of which this administration consists, are the acts necessary to produce that end. These actions, we comprehend in the three following classes: The first is Legislation, under which we also comprise the care of the moral law, according to both tables, and the enacting of subordinate laws with respect to places, times and persons, by which laws, provision may be the better made for the observance of that immovable law, and the various societies, being restricted to certain relations, may be the more correctly governed; that is, ecclesiastical, civil, scholastic and domestic associations. The second contains the vocation to delegated offices or duties, and the oversight of all actions and things which are necessary to the whole society. The third is either the eradication of all evils out of the society, if they be internal, or the warding of them off, if they be external, even with war, if that be necessary, and the safety of society should require it. ~~ (Public Disputations, Disputation 25, "On Magistracy", James Arminius)

All Authority over the Christian Church is concentrated in the Absolute Power of the State

The care of religion has been committed by God to the chief magistrate, more than to priests and to ecclesiastical persons. ~~ (Certain Articles, Article 28, "On Magistracy", James Arminius)

Because this power is pre eminent, we assert that every soul is subject to it by divine right, whether he be a layman or a clergyman, a deacon, priest, or bishop, an archbishop, cardinal, or patriarch, or even the Roman pontiff himself; so that it is the duty of every one to obey the commands of the magistrate, to acknowledge his tribunal, to await the sentence, and to submit to the punishment which he may award. ~~ (Public Disputations, Disputation 25, "On Magistracy", James Arminius)

The Utter Subjection of all Human life, whether natural or spiritual, to the Dictates of the Absolute State should be "terrified and compelled" by the Power of the Sword:

The form is the power itself, according to which these functions themselves are discharged, with an authority that is subject to God alone, and pre-eminently above whatever is human; for this inspires spirit and life, and gives efficacy to these functions. It is enunciated "power by right of the sword," by which the good may be defended, and the bad terrified, restrained and punished, and all men compelled to perform their prescribed duties. To this power, as supreme, belongs the authority of demanding, from those under subjection, tribute, custom, and other burdens. These resemble the sinews, by which the authority and power necessary for these functions, are held together and established. ~~ (Public Disputations, Disputation 25, "On Magistracy", James Arminius)

As the links says... "Phew.... Thank God that America was founded primarily by convinced Calvinists, and not Arminians."

Sadly, times have changed.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Great post, Harley. It's getting tougher to know where Calvin's comments stop and yours begin. 8~)

Papists themselves are compelled to own that Paul ascribes to the grace of God the whole glory of our salvation, but endeavor to do away with this admission by another contrivance. This mode of expression, they tell us, is employed, because God bestows the first grace. It is really foolish to imagine that they can succeed in this way, since Paul excludes man and his utmost ability, - not only from the commencement, but throughout, - from the whole work of obtaining salvation.

But it is still more absurd to overlook the apostle's inference, lest any man should boast. Some room must always remain for man's boasting, so long as, independently of grace, merits are of any avail. Paul's doctrine is overthrown, unless the whole praise is rendered to God alone and to his mercy. And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.

Amen! It's all a free gift, from beginning to end. And none can boast.

[boatbums]

My point being that unless God gives them ears to hear, as simple as salvation is, they just won't believe. If we have the free will to decide who would say no to salvation when all you have to do is believe.

I have shared the Gospel with more people than I can remember, but it is not my job to MAKE them see or hear or accept. I have gone away disappointed before only to find out years later that the person had come to faith, maybe I had a small part, maybe not. Paul said he planted, another watered but God gave the increase. We never know how God plans to use our witness, but we do know he tells us to share it.

It IS strange why some people don't believe when the good news of the Gospel is explained. But I can think of many reasons why they reject it: pride; too-good-to-be-true mentality; unwilling to surrender to the Lord; unwilling to change their minds about salvation; blinded by sin; etc. Probably a lot more reasons. I still don't believe, though, that some reject the Gospel because it is God's will that they go to hell. Just doesn't make sense that "there is rejoicing in heaven over one soul that comes to repentance" if it was all planned out ahead of time.

I go back again and again to the example I heard that helped put it into perspective for me. In heaven, the sign on the outside of the door says, "Whosoever will.", and once you go in the sign on the inside says, "Chosen in him before the foundation of the world."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

maybe Warfield doesn't even have the brains of a doorknob.

What doorknob is sitting on the oft-posted horse?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Did God create man with a will and then just walk away, or is God active in the happenings in the world? If we agree that God is active, then we have to decide if the will God gave us is capable of being outside of God's control. Warfield is saying that if it is, then God can no longer be God because God would have created something more powerful than Himself

Amen! Nutshell time.

[caww]

Have to say I don’t agree with Warfields position. Mainly because God doesn’t need us to validate himself.

Warfields frequent use of the word “imagine” itself is distracting, as well as frequent use of “control”.
Additionally, the whole article presents a negative and distorted view of who God is.

Example: Just in his first two sentences his repetitive use of——

..we are controlled
..we are controlled
..we are controlled

I wonder, do you think this guy is clearly not asking questions rather stating his stance pretty forcefully and surrounding his words with a bunch of fluff to make it palitable. Not for me....

[boatbums]

Do you believe we love God of our own free will?

[caww]

Mr. Rogers,

I just have to share there was a place in Ohio that taught the Gospel to kids at a horse ranch, and they used horse and rider to illistrate. The kids understood very well and a wonderful way of teaching I thought.

[caww]

Yes

[Cronos]

Quite, Dr, how does the idea of the elite work with

"1 Timothy 2: 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself as ransom for all. "

or

1 Corinthians 15: 20 7 8 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 9 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. 22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, 23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ

These quotes from scripture negate the idea of a predestined elite.

[Cronos]

“If we have the free will to decide who would say no to salvation when all you have to do is believe. “ — this last sentence is incoherent, please could you rephrase? You do bring up an interesting point, but one that is used over and over again by many fringe groups to NOT preach the word (I’ve seen many “born agains” try to preach, haphazardly and then, when the listener (who may not even be Christian) retorts back with a simple question, the “born again” quotes “God doesn’t want you to believe, so I shall shake the dust off my feet and go”) — namely this is used as an excuse for a closed heart.

[caww]

....” Mo had domination over his followers political, social and religious life, both now and in the here-after, leading to them following him to death — a very powerful tool for an earthly ruler.”

Yes, exactly...and this is why the middle-east/nations leadership will never let go of Islam as they themselves know they control the people, retain their own power etc. exactly as Mohammed did. Wha- LA!

Therefore Hillary just announcing millions of our dollars to got to Yemen to rehabilitate jihadists will never work! The money will be deverted elsewhere...what a joke! And the fact this administration considered this to begin with tells us all they have no clue what Islam is about even from a political perspective. This is dangerous for our country.

[caww]

....” Mo had domination over his followers political, social and religious life, both now and in the here-after, leading to them following him to death — a very powerful tool for an earthly ruler.”

Yes, exactly...and this is why the middle-east/nations leadership will never let go of Islam as they themselves know they control the people, retain their own power etc. exactly as Mohammed did. Wha- LA!

Therefore Hillary just announcing millions of our dollars to got to Yemen to rehabilitate jihadists will never work! The money will be deverted elsewhere...what a joke! And the fact this administration considered this to begin with tells us all they have no clue what Islam is about even from a political perspective. This is dangerous for our country.