Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

History is eloquent in declaring that the American republican democracy was born of Christianity and that form of Christianity was Calvinism. The great revolutionary conflict which resulted in the founding of this nation was carried out mainly by Calvinists

Amen! And thanks for the terrific links.

"Whatever the cause, the Calvinists were the only fighting Protestants. It was they whose faith gave them courage to stand up for the Reformation. In England, Scotland, France, Holland, they,... did the work, and but for them the Reformation would have been crushed... If it had not been for Calvinists,... and whatever you like to call them, the Pope and Philip would have won, and we should either be Papists or Socialists." ~ Sir John Skelton

---

"Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise." -- Nehemiah 9:5

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your replies and insights, dear xone!

I read from your two posts three rationales that whoever established the close communion doctrine may use before Christ to justify withholding what he believed to be His body and His blood (your words, title emphasis mine, weakest to strongest:)

1. Fear: “At my church if you got ushered up for Communion, you would get it, but if you held heterodox beliefs or were not Christian at all, that redounds to our pastor to answer at his judgement…My Church allows for pastoral discretion on the issue since the pastor is the on on the hook so to speak.”

2. Love: ”Catholics/Lutherans or any others who practice 'close communion' do so out of love.”

3. Unity: ”These Catholic doctrines are also being affirmed during the sacrament as a matter of the unity of faith…The practice of 'come one come all' Communion has a negative effect on the spiritual unity of a congregation, and that is why it is discouraged.”

I would not advise using fear as an excuse before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment:

And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? – Mark 4:40

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. – I John 4:18

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. – Rev 21:8

The appeal to love has merit but rings hollow. As you say “Since we are not omniscient, we can't know the hearts of our visitors or members” – and thus the pastor may also by offering the cup and bread to a member with an unclean heart and thereby may likewise be a party to his condemnation under I Cor 11:29-30. So if withholding the cup and bread from a non-member is the loving thing to do, shouldn’t he also be loving to the members of his own assembly whose conscience is likewise unknowable to him?

The appeal to unity has the ring of truth, that it is an exclusionary practice to separate the assembly, the body, the church, from the world.

But the assembly in this case – by this doctrine – is one along doctrinal lines such as Catholic or Lutheran. A person wholly submitted to God but not choosing between competing religious authorities each claiming exclusive authority to shepherd him and to offer Christ’s body and blood - would be excluded from both.

I endeavor to pray without ceasing, walk in His Light and follow His leading in every respect (Romans 8, John 15) – and since He has not led me to join any exclusive assembly, I shall remain an outsider to all of them, excluded by them, but included by Him.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:1-9

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. – Romans 8:14-18

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27

For the record, I eschew all hard divisions within the body of Christ (Catholic, Orthodox, Calvinism, etc.) Who is Paul? Who is Apollos? (I Corinthians 3:1-7) We are all Christian, we are all His. We are the sheep and He is the Good Shepherd (John 10.)

In a subsequent post, annalex asks whether I discern the body and blood of Christ. I waited to respond, because my reply is relevant to this reply.

Yes, I do discern the body and blood of Christ. I am one of His sheep. He feeds me (Psalms 23.) Man does not control God.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? – Acts 10:44-47

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? – Acts 11:15-17

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. – Acts 15:1

My spiritual leading is that close communion is a broken cistern.

For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, [and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. – Jeremiah 2:13

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) – John 7:38-39

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. – I Corinthians 12:13

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

[Cvengr]

So we agree, Christ did not build His Church upon Peter, but upon the chief cornerstone, the Rock, our Lord Christ Jesus.

[Cvengr]

Exactly what good works worthy of eternal reward are possible outside of faith through Christ in His Word revealed in the canon of Scripture?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It really isn't for us to assess the evidence of what is above or below average because we don't know what God's "average" is and His average is the only gauge that matters.

But we have God's holy word which tells us what God expects from us and how we are to live and worship Him.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Well now, that's fascinating! Let's compare annalex's words with the Scripture he posted.

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:37

[Quix]

I initially thought on this topic that I likely would find something to quibble with you about.

Yet again, at the end of this excellent piece, I find myself agreeing with you wholesale.

Praise God for your Spirit anointed wisdom and discernment in sharing a very Biblical, wise and balanced perspective.

It has repeatedly appeared to me that folks immersed up to their addicted, narrow, rigid biases in INSTITUTIONALISM, IN RELIGIONISM . . . just do not seem . . . or just do not tend to put God first above all else—and oddly, least above THEIR INSTITUTION purportedly formed to put him first.

Humans are such . . . crazy critters.

[Petronski]

Neither Christ nor I agree with your description.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragement, dear brother in Christ!

And I do agree that humans are "crazy critters" LOLOL!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You are now speaking for God?

Read your Bible. God speaks for Himself, and those with ears to hear listen.

Nowhere in Scripture are men told to pray to anyone other than the Triune God.

"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God" -- DEUTERONOMY 5:8-9

[Cvengr]

Well, Peter sure seems to.

1stPeter 2:4-9 seems pretty clear about Christ being the Chief Cornerstone.

If Christ doesn’t agree with this, and Peter is wrong, is there some other source other than Scripture that gives you this assurance?

[Quix]

THIS REMINDED ME OF YOUR POST:

It is vividly along the lines of what I’ve expected for a long time. I believe there will be other flavors and forms of this sort of thing. Organized RELIGIONISM will be largely abandoned by authentic believers.

Some even denominational churches may well survive and do God’s work—but it will be IN SPITE of their organizations instead of because of them. They will be local congregations whose leadership has effectively LED THE PEOPLE IN PUTTING GOD FIRST IN ALL THINGS REGARDLESS . . . and particularly in Loving God foremost and people as themselves. They will have an emphasis on worship, following Holy Spirit WHEREVER AND HOWEVER HE LEADS and on helping the poor.

JUST RECEIVED:

######################

From: REVIVAL List [mailto:prophetic@revivalschool.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 2:17 PM
To: anzac@welovegod.org
Subject: [revival] AN “OUT-of-CHURCH” REVIVAL??

AN “OUT-of-CHURCH” REVIVAL??
-by Mike Story.

I thought you’d be interested in what’s happening here in Finland.

There is an extraordinary movement of the Holy Ghost here.
Something unprecedented in its size and growth.

Young people are Coming To Faith; they have an immediate
desire to go out into the streets and bring others into the fold.
There is NO interest in “church” or religion at all!

They want teaching and spiritual fathers & mothers; they know
“only milk” yet go out and teach that to kids in the streets ...
And they Come To Faith!

We have had to open our houses to them ( we were told to buy an
old village school 20 years ago... so surprise-surprise we have
two classrooms where we can train groups of future leaders ). Kids
are leaving the churches and seeking The Lord elsewhere because
they can’t find Him in the religion and ceremonies and that applies
just as much to Pentecostal as to Free church, Lutheran, Orthodox,
Anglican, Baptist as it does to ALL Organised Religion: they WANT
what I call “inspired disorganisation” where MAN doesn’t do the
organising; we just LISTEN ... And then do as we are told!

One young man ( to whom I have lent my copy of Out Of Church
Christians before I even read it myself ! ) is co-ordinating these
groups and acts as an enabler; bringing teaching from elders ( in
the “mature Christian” sense ) to beginners; arranging meetings
and encouraging these young people to keep going ! Very Book Of Acts!

The LORD is doing extraordinary things in India, in Andaman and
in Finland ... Thought you’d like to know!

-Dr Mike Story.

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[Petronski]

Again, Christ never calls Peter the Chief Cornerstone.

Christ calls Peter the rock upon which He built His Church.

Stop conflating “Chief Cornerstone” with “the rock upon which I will build My Church.” They are not the same, nor were they ever described as same.

[Petronski]

Nowhere in Scripture are men told to pray to anyone other than the Triune God.

So naturally you never ask anyone to pray for you. Of course.

[Petronski]

Nowhere in Scripture are men told to pray to anyone other than the Triune God.

So naturally you never ask anyone to pray for you. Of course.

[Alamo-Girl]

Praise God!!!

What wonderful news from Finland!

No one and no thing can thwart the will of God.

[kosta50]

I disagree with both premises that underlie your assertion

Your disagreement is understood. Your arguments are valid, but they relate to our break in communion and not what is the Catholic Church. Since there can only be one Church, and that Church is Catholic, all those who are members of that Church, are by definition Catholics. Just because some of the Churches are not in communion with each other does not make them non-Catholic.

You can't claim that the term Catholic applies only to those who are in communion wiht Rome. The Catholic Church is where the aposotlic succession is, where the sacraments are true, and where the clergy is valid. The Vatican recognizes it as such or esle the Eastern Churches would not be true Churches. I do understand that not all Churches in communion with Rome are Latin in their rite, but the they represent barely 2% of the community, with 98% Latin rite. If the Orthodox are to be excluded from Catholic caucuses, then the only other option is to come up with a better name for a caucus which is restricted to the Churches in communion with Rome. Otherwise the Orthodox will post on those threads as well and rightfully so.

I agree that we should state our differences in a way that is not rude or insulting, and we do have our differences, as well as agreements, as you note.

Part of that difference is a perception that anything goes in the Western Church. From Notre Dame, to Pelosi, to various free-wheeling bishops. It seems some of the members of the Churches in communion with Rome (CICWR) seemingly have immunity to being disciplined. Is there any wonder then that to the Orthodox any union with such aberrations seems undesirable or even some individuals in particular actually heretical. I mean, Pelosi argues that the Church was not always opposed to abortion. Is that "orthodox?"

[Cvengr]

Well good, at least we got that straight. I thought for a second you disagreed with me when I sought to glorify Christ as the Chief Cornerstone. Now we both agree on that point.

Now when we are reported in Matthew that Christ is building the Church upon this rock, is that rock Peter, or is it Christ?

[Quix]

Before I trundle off to bed . . . I want to comment a bit more on this excellent paragraph:

Let me report just this: The alleged "gift" is not even something you're thinking about, certainly not desiring.

I have to say mostly but not 100% yes on that score. I have asked repeatedly for all God has for me in terms of spiritual gifts . . . all of Holy Spirit He will grace me with etc. repeatedly. On the other hand, such gifts tend to come with requirements and . . . challenges which leave one feeling more than occasionally--GOODNESS! WHAT DID I GET MYSELF INTO! Yet, God's grace is always sufficient and the benefits to HIS KINGDOM and to hurting people are so evident and obvious . . . the joy is rich and the satisfaction is rich regardless of the hassles. Has that been true in your experience?

It's like a camera shutter opens, or a button is pushed, and you know and you speak. That's it.

INDEED. That's an excellent description.

I can't make it happen, I don't even think about it, until it happens.

There's plenty of truth to that. I CERTAINLY CANNOT MAKE it happen at all. And trying to virtually guarantees nothing will happen! Holy Spirit blows where HE wants. However, on occasion, I can think about it. Though for me, thinking about it can often just muddy the water and hinder "hearing" Holy Spirit clearly. It works best . . . well . . . usually I'll have a word or a phrase or maybe a simple sentence that's pressing increasingly "loudly" in my spirit for expression in a given situation to a given individual, group, congregation.

And I'm increasingly trying to insure that I ask and wait on God for a fitting opening. If it's 1:1 with an individual, I may just immediately ask if I may share an impression I'm having that I think may be from The Lord. When I finish, I'll instruct them to take it to Scripture and to The Lord in prayer AND ASK HIM WHAT, IF ANYTHING, THE LORD would have them take to heart of what I've said.

In any case, if I have a word or a phrase or a sentence to start with, if I'll begin by sharing that, the rest will come like a flowing stream that's been temporarily dammed up. And when there's no more flow, no more words coming, I usually, now, have the good sense to stop.

Many times in such situations, I'll have a feeling or an impression that is not articulated. It's not quite a feeling but it's not NOT a feeling either. It's much more than a feeling. Yet not with words attached. So, I'll usually pray in tongues and wait a bit for articulation to come. I may share several ways of articulating it until the best fit comes out.

As a psychologist, that's a fun thing to kind of stand outside myself and watch. Some people claim one can't have thoughts without words. That experience shows me that's not necessarily so.

I think it was John Wimber who advocated strongly ministering with one's eyes open watching the recipient . . . and when it was clear God was touching the person at the mention of a specific thing--wait on The Lord or tune in more intensely along that line for whatever more The Lord might have to share along that line. I've found that fruitful, too.

I'm not trying to assume at all that we have identical giftings. God seems to love to do things differently with each of us though some are quite similar.

I certainly don't think it makes me special or indicates that I am special.

ABSOLUTELY INDEED. Except that each of us is SPECIAL in His eyes. And, some He blesses/challenges with rather unique giftings . . . seemingly off the wall enough or out of conventional standards enough just to jangle the starchy and prissy and knock them enough katty wumpus that Holy Spirit can finally 'leak into' the cracks in their starchy-ness. However, arrogance about the gift tends to chase away the anointing rather quickly. Holding a dry empty bag of such an experience or gifting is truly horrific of major proportions. One does NOT want to go there again!

EXCEPT that in that I am a classically edumicated innerleckshual, it is awkward to have this inexplicable thing happen to me. Last damn this I want.

I can identify with the feelings, for sure. However, having said to HIM that I want all He will give me of His Spirit and His Spirit's giftings, I'm not about to say such a thing. And, I really DO WANT ALL HE has for me--even challenging giftings that can be . . . problematic and challenging more than occasionally.

What I want is something like being the worlds foremost Dante scholar, or just to be a good disciple of my Lord. But what I have is, "And now this word from the future; [some stuff I don't understand, and don't believe only it "comes true" in a weekend or a year.]

INDEED. I can understand those feelings quite well. I think I've come to a place of peace about such giftings AS LONG AS I CAN BE CONFIDENT THE LORD IS INVOLVED. And most of the time WHEN the press in my spirit is above a certain degree--that's no problem. When it's of a lower intensity, that's an agonizing challenge to me. Some of the lower intensity stuff has still been fully Him and He has still confirmed it in multiple ways. Yet, not 100% of the time in all respects. I hate that.

And certainly I'm not at all in charge of the intensity of Holy Spirit's expressions or presses within me. I can pay better attention from one situation to the next depending. But that doesn't change Holy Spirit's intensity. I can wait on Him and pray and ask Him to make things clearer. Often that helps.

Anyway, that's my experience of such things. Sure appreciate your sharing that. LUBBRO.

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Brings tears of joy to my eyes.