Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[Cronos]

What’s to stop me from going to a friend’s farm, chopping off the head of a chicken, hanging the chicken upside down on a wall, drawing a pentagram above it, taking a picture and claiming that the picture was taken at the local Machenite church?

Well, because you're honest, you won't make up lies like that. However, we can't expect Machen worshippers in the OPC to be equally honest.

[Cronos]

By the way, Tax-chick, Mel Gibson is planning on making a movie in Old Norse and Old English soon.

Boy, Mel really hates the English, eh? Movies on SCots fighting English, American colonials fighting English, Australians fighting English and now the Vikings coming and tossing aside the silly Anglo-Saxons!

[John Leland 1789]

“Did the aliens come down and change history too?”

---

No, just religious monstrosities that seek to control men and dominate their faith are history revisionists in this context.

[Judith Anne]

How can you agree with people who lie, distort facts and just bluster about, spouting lies and then not retracting them when their falseness is pointed out? Leaving them to their devices means they harangue lurkers.

You are right. My tendency is to find dishonest posters exhausting, blustering posters malodorous, and unkind posters provocative. I don't know where good posters get the strength to expose the dishonest, blustery, unkind anti-Catholics day after day after day. Personally, I find the spite contagious, and want to return in kind, against Our Lord's commandment.

[Cronos]

Dr E: WayofLife.org is not an "anti-Catholic website;" it is a Christian website. And there is no reason to doubt the photo's authenticity other than wishful thinking.

Mark: Wayoflife.org is a virulent antiCatholic website. They are not American, by the way. You prattle and prate about American superiority and still keep coming with non American heroes, icons and idols. They trash Billy Graham with wild glee. Alcohol is the devil's gift to man. Pentecostals are the devil's apostles. They trash all the current Baptist groups. They post extensively on the emergent church apostacies. The nice thing is the even more extensive repudiation that they have of Calvinism and Reformed doctrine.

Perhaps the good doctor does in fact agree with this "Christian website that trashes Billy GRaham, considers Pentecostals as devil's apostles and Baptists too.

So, Dr. E, question -- do you believe that Pentecostals are, as the website you linked to says, the devil's apostles?

And, a personal question -- do you agree with the website that you posted to when it trashes all Baptist groups?

And finally, do you then agree with the wayofflies' repudiation of Calvinism and REformed Doctrine?

I assume these have some weight as the link you posted to this supposedly Christian website talks about this -- please could you help us understand this group -- are they related to the OPC? And is this all OPC belief too?

[Judith Anne]

I have noticed your effective, factual counter-arguments. I tend to shoot from the lip, unlike you.

[Cronos]

STRAWMAN -- your statement was “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.”

1. Talking about Durant and the migrations has no relation to that false statement made by your earlier post
2. Again, no relation to the false statement that people in the Caucasus had not heard of Rome
3. AGain, no-one talked about any centralization of power -- YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.” -- "heard of"
4. Again -- YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.” -- "heard of"
5, Talking about St. Paul's journeys has not relation to what YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.” -- "never heard of Rome"
6. Talking about straight lines from Antioch and migrations has no relation to what YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.” -- "never heard of Rome"
7. Migrations has no relation to what YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.”
8. The fervency of missionaries has no relation to what YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.”


Don't try to dodge this -- YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.” -- and that was wrong. Flat out, wrong.

[Cronos]

The photographer who took the photo named it "Mary's Sacrifice." Get it? Mary is on the cross, as a sacrifice, as anyone with new or old eyes can plainly see who googles Mary on cross Nicaragua photography by Ivan.

Oh, so now the OPC thinks that the photographs Ivan describes Church doctrine?

That must be news to dear old Ivan.

If Ivan took a picture of a Crucifix in a Calvinist place, he could say "Calvinists rejoining Christian Church" and that would be a fact, as per that posts definition, correct?

[John Leland 1789]

“Don't try to dodge this — YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the ‘See of Rome.’”

---

No dodge here! I'll say it again, and you're saying it is wrong does NOT make it wrong. You just might be “flat-out” ignorant of it because you believe that the only reliable histories are those that are approved by the “SEE.”

THERE WERE CHURCES FOLLOWING CHRIST UP INTO THE CUACUSES MOUNTAINS AND EASTERN EUROPE, AND ALL THE WAY TO NORTHWEST EUROPE IN THE FIRST THREE CENTURIES WHICH HAD NEVER HEARD OF THE “SEE OF ROME.”

Further, there were Christians and their churches in Britain before the first priest of Rome ever knew how to read a map of the British Channel.

[Cronos]

There was migration of millions from the Mediteranean region to ALL areas of the then known world, including Europe, as far as the British Isles and further north.

"Millions"? Then how come the population of England never grew until the late Middle Ages? And further north -- you mean that MILLIONS of people settled in Iceland? Even though the current population of that country is about 250,000. Or do you mean Greenland, which has a current population of 50,000? Or do you refer to Atlantis?

[Cronos]

I have noticed your effective, factual counter-arguments.

Actually, i'm just a simple Catholic and I learn more about my faith from you guys. The screeds put here by anti-Church posters is so ludicrous that anyone can point out their errors, which are obvious to anyone who has ever picked up a Bible or a history book. Case in point -- John L's assertion that the Church in the Caucasus had never heard of the "see of Rome" -- which is hilarious considering that Armenia and Georgia had been in contact with Greece and by extension Rome for hundreds if not thousands of years (Colchis, the Golden fleece etc.). Then you have posts like Johns in #4814, addressed to Quix, in which you can understand the virulent hatred they have for The Church, when they say And this in the face of the fact that worldwide there are people who are demon-possessed, worshippers of unclean things still standing at the front of altars controlled by the “SEE”, opening their mouths and having something called “His Body” put in their mouths every Sunday morning. --what does that tell you?

[Cronos]

Let's repeat this slowly. YOU said “There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the ‘See of Rome.’”

I'll say it again, and you're saying it is wrong does NOT make it wrong.

Nope, but all historical evidence makes your statement that the Caucasus had "never heard of Rome" absolutely, hilariously, wrong.

You just might be “flat-out” ignorant of it because you believe that the only reliable histories are those that are approved by the “SEE.”

So, you believe in histories approved by the master historians of Betelgeuse XV? Do you have any links to these that are outside the HHGG?

Further, there were Christians and their churches in Britain before the first priest of Rome ever knew how to read a map of the British Channel.

Really? Did the Betelgeusian masters tell this as well?

[Quix]

INDEED.

[Alamo-Girl]

me: “That the art, if indeed representing Mary, doesn’t bother you is irrelevant to the fact that it bothers me.”

you: True, but objectively no Christian should be bothered by a piece of art that depicts Mary missing her son. Being bothered in that way would indicate either an unchristian sentiment or a dislike of art.

My sentiment is not “unchristian” nor do I dislike art.

I browse art websites, frequent art museums and so on. Indeed, three of my relatives are professional artists.

As I have said before, it always bothers me when I see anyone or anything draped on the Cross as if to say he or it is equal to Christ.

That I perceive such “art” – e.g. Madonna or Santa on the Cross posted earlier on the thread - as an insult to the body and blood of Christ is clearly a Christian sentiment. If I didn’t love Christ or if I didn’t consider the Cross sacred, I wouldn’t care.

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. – I Cor 2:1-2

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. - Psalms 22:14-18

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? – Hebrews 10:29

For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God. – Deut 4:24

God’s Name is I AM

[Mad Dawg]

The Wren auditory church in which the pulpit had pride of place took over from the classic three room (nave, chancel, sanctuary) church after the Reformation. The great contribution of the Reformation was to focus attention on a man, the preacher.

I must say, some wren auditory churches are lovely.

[Alamo-Girl]

Of course, dear sister in Christ, and may God ever bless you and your loved ones.

[Judith Anne]

Should we all be up so late? Well, I have no early appointments, must just go grocery shopping in the a.m. before the mastiff starts wondering if there is any meat left on my bones...

MD, thank you for reminding me of the inherent meanings of sacred architecture. I knew that, from years ago, and had forgotten about it. I was confirmed in the New Cathedral in St. Louis, very very beautiful place...

I think I will have a glass of wine. It will help me relax, and maybe ease my aching back.

[Alamo-Girl]

Well, I have no early appointments, must just go grocery shopping in the a.m. before the mastiff starts wondering if there is any meat left on my bones...

LOLOL! Sleep well, dear sister in Christ!

[Judith Anne]

As I have said before, it always bothers me when I see anyone or anything draped on the Cross as if to say he or it is equal to Christ.

I fully understand your reverence of this symbol of Christ's sacrifice for our sins...for the same reason, I treasure my small gold crucifix. I wear it at all times, an ever-present reminder of my Savior's death for my sins, and His resurrection. Because who can think of His death without remembering His victory over it?

But not everyone thinks the same way, and there is no way to force so-called artists to behave according to our sensibilities. Some of them may be Christians In Name Only, or even pagan.

[Alamo-Girl]

So very true on both points.

Artists will continue to express themselves. And so shall I.