Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Judith Anne]

I was responsing to Quix’s post 4588, not looking for the Bible verse, it does not apply to his post.

[RnMomof7]

And even the Catholic Church has rarely pulled doctrine from the Apocrypha, since it is an open question - left that way at Trent - if the Apocrypha is good for doctrine.

Naw they needed maccabees ..it is the only historical document that hints at prayers for the dead.. so they needed that for the doctrine of purgatory and all the indulgences they sold .

Interesting because that very book tells you it is not inspired.. but hey they needed that indulgences money to build the Vatican

[Mad Dawg]

Not all traditions are "traditions of men" or traditions of the Pharisees. To speak again some traditions is not to speak against all tradition. Even if there weren't places where Paul encourages people to abide by paradosis, the text you cite would not serve the mission you sent it out for.

And I'd like to find a Catholic teaching that says we are redeemed by silver or gold.

[Iscool]

To the original point, Paul’s certification and the Torah, I hear the words of God in Paul’s manuscripts as surely as the Gospel of Matthew and the Torah. I hear the words of God in John’s manuscripts as surely as the Psalms and the Prophets.

Exactly...As we hear the writers of the scripture, we hear God...

[RnMomof7]

You need to think of Trent as judicial, not legislative. The Council ruled on many things already in longstanding use.

And people need to know it is still fully enforced and affirmed by every pope.

A sample of trent

If any one shall deny that the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as a sign, or in a figure, or virtually -- let him be accursed (Canon 1).

If any one shall say that the substance of the bread and wine remains in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, together with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and shall deny that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the outward forms of the bread and wine still remaining, which conversion the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation -- let him be accursed (Canon 2).

If any man shall say that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, even with the open worship of latria, and therefore not to be venerated with any peculiar festal celebrity, nor to be solemnly carried about in processions according to the praiseworthy, and universal rites and customs of the holy Church, and that he is not to be publicly set before the people to be adored, and that his adorers are idolaters -- let him be accursed (Canon 6).

If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).

If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).

Such loving anathemas from the "church of LOVE" that thinks it awful to ask God to judge a pro abortionist

Can you spell hypocrite?

[Forest Keeper]

Esquirette: “Anything contributed by the sinful soul to salvation is an insult to Christ and His sufficient sacrifice.”

Mr. Rogers: Suppose you are deeply in debt - $220,000! You are about to be wiped out financially. A man offers to pay your debt. You say, “Thank you”! The man writes a check for $220,000 to the bank. Who paid the debt? Another man is also $220,000 in debt. The same man who paid your debt offers to pay his. But this man shouts, “How dare you! I can stand on my own two feet!” The bank repossess the man’s house & all his other property. Was HIS debt paid? If not, why not?

I don't think your analogy follows at all from what I think Esquirette was saying. In applying it to your analogy I inferred that Esquirette meant that there would BE no man who would offer to pay your debt of $220,000. Instead, there would be a man who saw that you were in debt and then decide by himself that he was going to pay it. And he would not tell you at first. (For his own reasons the man decided that he would do the same for many others in debt, but not everyone. And in fact, he decided to make one big payment, say billions of dollars, covering everyone he chose, instead of many smaller payments.)

In any event, after he decided that he would be paying your debt then he came to you and began communicating with you. He showed you many things you had never known before, and after a while you were convinced that you needed to follow this man. He showed you that you would never be able to pay off your debt unless you followed him and let him pay it for you. You believed in him and wanted to do as he said. (You see, this man had a way of communicating that never failed.) Now, it was at this point, when you decided to follow this man, that he called the bank and instructed it to apply $220,000 from the billions he had already paid directly to your account, thus wiping out your debt.

Naturally you were grateful, but notice that this did not pan out as a bargaining situation between two parties at arm's length. The man decided by himself that he was going to pay, he knew he would convince you to follow, and then he made it happen. Sure, you listened, and agreed to follow. You made a choice. That was your experience. What you didn't know at the time was how much planning and effort the man had already put in so that you would wind up for certain in the wonderful place you landed. Everything really WAS all his doing.

Well, only Esquirette can say for sure what she meant. This is just how I took it. :)

[Quix]

THANKS BRO.

Much appreciate the affirmation of my sense of things.

May well ask you a question on FREEPMAIL SOON re the software and possibilities.

[Quix]

ABSOLUTELY.

[Quix]

Scripture indicates that the

JUDGMENTS OF THE LORD ARE RIGHTEOUS.

HE IS RIGHTEOUS IN ALL HIS WAYS.

I firmly believe that those prayers I prayed re Coakley were the most loving things I could extend toward her.

The BEST thing that can happen to her is to have her sensibilities, her life—her whole being caught up sternly short before she continues down that road further racking up more punishments upon herself.

I have experienced judgments of The Lord that I wouldn’t have wished on Hitler.

Yet I know they were GOD’S MERCY to me.

I don’t think anyone who hasn’t been there can very fully understand.

[Quix]

Calling a spade a spade. We can’t be sissies, here.

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
AS LONG AS
IT GOES
ONE
DIRECTION!
LOL!

[RnMomof7]

From where I am Priests are kind of critical for the life of the Church, for the members of the Church. But leave that aside.

Do you know that there is no role of priest outlined in the positions in the new church? The Jewish Priesthood was a type of Christ, once Christ came and offered the final sacrifice there was no longer a role for the priesthood.. God put a large exclamation point on that fact when He destroyed the temple in 70 AD and all the records of the line of the priesthood were destroyed

Just FYI, that wiki says that the term vicar of Christ was not used for a pope until such and such a time means nothing to me

It does not matter what it means to you, as a catholic you must accept him as the Vicar (stand in) for Christ..that is why your chruch says he is infallible on matters of doctrine..that is Christ speaking

The argumebnt that Peter did not preside at the Jerusalem COuncil also cuts no definitive ice. I've been in a number of situations where the "president" is not the supreme officer.

Actually he was a part of the reason it was called, he was moving into judaizing... thus Pauls letter to the Galatians

Gal2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

[Petronski]

Can you spell hypocrite?

Of course I can.

I think of that word reading many of your posts.

[RnMomof7]

Calling a spade a spade. We can’t be sissies, here.

Judith you judge him on his words but justify yours.. hypocrisy ( just calling a spade a spade ..BTW is that a racial epithet?...black folks think it is..)

[Mad Dawg]

Can you spell hypocrite?

Aitch, Why, Pee, Oh ...

Why do we have to START by going nuclear? Shall we just line up and scream at each other? Is that a good witness to the faith? Is it okay to suggest that the Catholic church is hypocritical if they do something naughty first?

Declaring people who teach false doctrine to be anathema is, as it were, legal language. It doesn't mean that I am going to sneak out and try to burn you at the stake. It does mean that (at least in theory and if our bishops could remember where they put there testosterone pills) if you get caught teaching that stuff you will start a slow and ponderous bureaucratic process which may in ten years result in your theological teaching "faculties" being pulled. Or you may get a watchdog bishop to wag his finger and tut at you.

AND, there are certain teachings which if believed, could conceivably, at least theoretically, keep one far from the streams of grace, whatever the Church said about them.

Honestly, sometimes I think half the fun of being a Protestant lies in taking offense at Catholic doings. In fact, the involuntarily curled lip, the unexpected rage at things which even sounded Catholic ... these were things which led me to reconsider Catholicism. When the face of a perfectly nice person suddenly, involuntarily twists upon his learning that I'm a Catholic, I begin to wonder who's doing the twisting.

[Petronski]

Again, though: shoot and move, eh?

As is per usual.

[Judith Anne]

Quix, God bless you, I was very nearly quoting you from one of your posts above. So... ;-D

[annalex]

All or Every - either or both - scripture is God-breathed

Except when we don't like it because it sounds too Catholic. Then it becomes unbreathed.

[wagglebee]

Except when we don't like it because it sounds too Catholic. Then it becomes unbreathed.

Yeah, there's always that.

[RnMomof7]

Of course I can. I think of that word reading many of your posts.

Doesn't your church teach that love is what gets you into heaven ( as a work of course) ..you are in BIG trouble

The Christian idea of brotherly love as compared with the pagan or Jewish concept has been touched upon elsewhere (see CHARITY AND CHARITIES). Briefly, its distinctive feature, and superiority as well, is to be found less in its commands, or prohibitions, or even results, than in the motive which prompts its laws and prepares its achievements. The faithful carrying out of the "new commandment" is called the criterion of true Christian discipleship (John xiii, 34 sq.), the standard by which we shall be judged (Matthew 25:34 sqq.), the best proof that we love God Himself (1 John 3:10), and the fulfilment of the whole law (Galatians 5:14), because, viewing the neighbour in God and through God, it has the same value as the love of God. The expression "to love the neighbour for the sake of God" means that we rise above the consideration of mere natural solidarity and fellow-feeling to the higher view of our common Divine adoption and heavenly heritage; in that sense only could our brotherly love be brought near to the love which Christ had for us (John 13:35), and a kind of moral identity between Christ and the neighbour (Matthew 25:40), become intelligible. From this high motive the universality of fraternal charity follows as a necessary consequence. Whosoever sees in his fellow-men, not the human peculiarities, but the God-given and God-like privileges, can no longer restrict his love to members of the family, or co-religionists, or fellow-citizens, or strangers within the borders (Leviticus 19:34), but must needs extend it, without distinction of Jew or Gentile (Romans 10:12), to all the units of the human kind, to social outcasts (Luke 10:33 sqq.), and even to enemies (Matthew 5:23 sq.).

Very forcible is the lesson wherein Christ compels His hearers to recognize, in the much despised Samaritan, the true type of the neighbour, and truly new is the commandment whereby He urges us to forgive our enemies, to be reconciled with them, to assist and love them.Catholic encyclopedia

Yep BIG TROUBLE...off to the confessional for ya :)

[Petronski]

You judge me with false-witness, a long-and-unattributed quote, and a smily face.

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