Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
For those who trust in Christ they already have received forgiveness of sins through His perfect satisfaction and are sanctified by His perfect righteousness and holiness and are co-inheritors with Christ.
It's a waste of time to talk to Reformed Calvinists?
If you say so.
Machenoma patients
2. To affirm the confession of faith of those with you at the altar, to include Marian doctrine.
3. To affirm the supremacy of the Pope.
Great things, ones you have railed against on many occassions.
And they have the responsibility to not minimize their perception of your errors in the faith.
Jeremiah chapter 7
FWIW, my wife and I just went for coffee and I mentioned your point. She got it right away. People start to worship the trappings of a church, the church itself, or believe the only way to God is through the church. Great point!
I'll see if she wants to read Jeremiah 7 with me. A whole new avenue of study.
I was jumping in and out and thought it was in reference to the ED discussion. My mistake, your point is much more poignant somethings never change.
You see the people thought that the building saved them. The fact that they had the temple of the Lord in their land, was going to protect them from their enemies. God, thru Jeremiah, reminded them of what happened at Shiloh when they thought the fact that they had the Ark amongst them, they could not be defeated, but it is not a material temple or a material boat that saves, and those are the things they mistakenly put their trust into.
Actually, I'm a bit increasingly concerned for some of their closer relationships.
They seem to assume that they can spew and spread such virulent bile in other relationships hereon, without it ever coming home to roost.
They are wrong.
We are integrated persons . . . more or less . . . some more and some less. LOL.
Whenever we hate, nurture bile and spite, vengeance, unfitting hostility . . . it influences our hearts that it broods in and tumbles out of . . . it influences our minds and particularly our spirits.
We don't turn such influences on and off like a light switch. Sooner or later they touch every relationship we have.
Oh, some folks are more skillful than others at putting on their Sunday persona like a coat and taking it off on Monday to skewer their business oponent.
The research literature calls such folks EXTRINSIC religionists. Their religion is not per se owned in their hearts, integrated into the fabric of their being and all aspects of their lives--lived as foundational values from the inside out. They have a host of problems from various addictions to other dysfunctional relationship stuff common to ATTACHMENT DISORDERED childhoods.
Interestingly, they can SOUND and ACT like the MOST INTENSE AND THE MOST DEVOUT. Scripture talks about such folks parading their prayers and their alms with long robes and trumpets etc.
I think that some folks are in that mode as they've fallen into it or been taught it as all that they've ever seen or known. I think that variety of folks may eventually be led of Holy Spirit into a more authentic relationship with GOD IF--THEY HAVE A HEART TO KNOW GOD SINCERELY, AT ALL.
Others, such a root of bitterness etc. has gripped their hearts in such a death grip for so long . . . and they have relished all the negative feelings, motives, dynamics and deeds soooo long, it would seem that there's little hope for their authentic conversion.
I just know from lots of personal experience and lots of counseling that we are what we are. Sooner or later what we are in one sphere and set of relationships will at least leak out and leak over into all the other relationships and spheres we operate in.
So I'm concerned for their marriages, their kids . . . we are talking lives and eternal souls here. And it grieves me.
So much of the hate labeling is sheer brazen projection. It's very soberingly sad. As one of the main targets, it doesn't cost me anything eterna. It actually puts currency in my heavenly bank. I'm utterly confident God knows my heart toward each of such characters--thankfully.
Yet, they are convinced they are utterly right and that God is on their side. And the bile fermenting and spewing continues on. And the rot deepens and expands within such hearts, souls and minds.
That's one of the reasons I'd still like to do whatever could be done to arrive at a way to insure more fully that Vatican related and TPCs' exchanges were more fully civil. I hate to see marriages hurt and children hurt from such constantly exercised bile, vengeance, hate.
It is likely that some of their rot is so extensive and so long standing that civil exchanges hereon would be a scant bandaid to their over all problems. Nevertheless, I'd still rather have this part of their lives more seriously Christian in tone and communications. Perhaps some benefit could leak over into their other relationships.
Up through this point, I'm with you 100% -- but it works both ways. We ALL have ivory towers (well, maybe not you, but the rest of us do)...some may be visible, some may not be visible.
A real difficult part of the problem seems to be the compulsion to FLASH hostility etc. whenever the INSTITUTION or the IDEAS, habits, customs, rituals, etc. are in any way questioned, challenged or maligned at all.
There's where you are mistaken.
It's not that the ideas, habits, customs, rituals, etc., are questioned or challenged...it's how they are challenged or questioned. That how turns a question or a challenge into maligning behavior.
If a person was to assert a challenge on, say, our veneration of the Blessed Virgin, they could do so in multiple ways. They could:
My response when encountering the second type of input is typically just to blow the person off. I have tried the patient response before, but it just doesn't seem to work. And, as you rightly point out, my blood pressure sure doesn't need the excessive stress at this juncture in my life.
But, it sounds like you are defending the person who screams "Mariolatry" and condemns the person who has the vigorous response. Do we have a splinter and plank situation here, my friend? I think we all have something we can learn about how to better bear the cross of Christ. I don't know how to get around that challenge. TPC's can write quite civily yet forcefully about our convictions and perspectives . . . and as long as our writing indicates any conviction that the Vatican, magicsterical et al are less than Mary's hanky perfect . . . the bile spewing is triggered and plentiful. Such folks just seem almost genetically incapable of distinguishing the DIFFERENCE between PERSON VS INSTITUTION And such confabulations are starkly real and doggedly persistent.
AND
IDEA, PHILOSOPHY, RELIGIOUS-SPIRITUAL CONVICTION VS PERSON
AND
INSTITUTION AS DISTINGUISHED FROM GOD'S PERSON HIMSELF
The biggest thing I would suggest is to pray that your writing is civil before you hit the "post" button.
The problem is that the institution of the Church is part of our beliefs. Here's a hint for you: when we read church (ekklesia) in our Bibles, unless it refers specifically to a particular Church (e.g., the Church in Thessalonica) or to some other grouping of people, our default reading of that is that the institution of the Church was immediately and directly established by Christ. (Of course, the institution, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has evolved considerably since that time, but it is the same institution) And we believe that this institution, through its ministers and the sacraments they minister, is directly involved with our salvation and spiritual growth. So when you attack the institution of the Church, you are attacking something very near and dear to our hearts.
I fully recognize that you do not agree with the above. And so I full well recognize that an attack on whatever institutional community that you may be involved with (A/G's, UPC, non-denominational Holiness, or whatever), if any, would likely not be perceived by you as such a sensitive matter.
Christ was chronically assailed by the RELIGIOUS rulers 2000 years ago. And even in terms of His disciples . . . He trusted Himself to no man for He knew what was in the heart of man. Similarly, He was not . . . tarnished nor riled up by any man. He knew WHO HE WAS AND WHAT WAS IN HIM. NOTHING FROM THE OUTSIDE could rile Him up per se. He was riled at the money changers because of their affront to His Father's priorities within Him. He didn't waste time tilting at windmills. He had no need to assault in response to every insult of the Pharisees--even though he knew they were spiritual sons of satan. And our identities, our persons, our all in all are to be HIDDEN IN CHRIST WHO IS TO BE OUR ALL IN ALL. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for the confabulation confusing GOD WITH INSTITUTION, WITH CUSTOMS, WITH RITUALS, WITH HABITS, WITH OBJECTS, WITH IDEAS, WITH !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! WITH . . . FORM . . . NO WAY for that to occur WITHOUT IDOLATRY. Doesn't matter whether it's a Pentecostal group or a Vatican related congregation.
I would challenge one statement, above.
When you stated, Christ was chronically assailed by the RELIGIOUS rulers 2000 years ago
I would point out that Christ was assailed by many of the religious rulers who had confidence in their ritual at the exclusion of the heart behind it. Jesus' long monologue against the scribes and Pharisees contained in Matthew 23 makes that clear. Jesus never condemned the ritual. He condemned the ritual for ritual's sake. There is a big difference.
If you are talking about somebody who is into the ritual for ritual's sake, while not amending their lives, I'm all with you...and I would bet that 99.9% of the Catholics who post on this forum would be right there with you as well.
I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the teachings of the Church are right there with you as well:
Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him (para 153)
Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.
It's funny. It the "ritual of Baptism," an inquiry is made. The first question asked of the one to be baptized is, "What do you ask of God's Church?". And the response of the one to be baptized is: "Faith!"
(And please keep in mind, if the intent is not there on the part of the one to be baptized, the baptism is considered to be invalid)
So for us, the prime mover is God's grace. Our response to God's grace is faith...and then action.
If God's grace isn't involved, there won't be faith and all of the action in the world is meaningless. (Sorrowfully, that may actually end up surprising some folks in the end)
The spiritual side of Unity through the Lord's Supper is a responsibility of the pastor or celebrant of the Supper.
Heb 13:
17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Acts 20
27For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
1Cor 4:
1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
. . . the only broad term a forum website can use . . .. . . "can" . . . ????
Uhhhhh . . . no . . . I came up with some charitable, inclusive, encompasing terms I hoped would be seen as mutually acceptable.
I really did try to use "Romanist / Papist Scum Caucus", but a mod deleted the experimental thread.
So I'm trying to work with you here, Quix.
###########
That any organization calling itself Christian would exclude any genuine Christian from the Lord's Supper . . . and an acting out of that Christian's DIALOGUE LEVEL RELATIONSHIP with the PERSON OF THE RISEN LORD
for those
cheeky, arrogant, !!!!CONTROL!!!! PHREAQUE IN-GROUP VS OUT-GROUP excuses
is . . . heretical horror, to me.
As I try to scan the future with some discernment yet informed guesstimate . . .
I believe there will be a time when God will tolerate some sensibilities being attended to but more or less lain aside so that true Christians can fellowship, worship AND DO HIS GREAT EXPLOITS TOGETHER IN THESE END TIMES--EVEN TO SURVIVE.
I believe that neighborhoods, towns, cities, countys will have food, water, protection TO THE DEGREE THAT THE TRUE CHRISTIANS IN THAT AREA COOPERATE TOGETHER--laying aside their prissy distinctives.
Then, I believe that at some point:
God will be making some emphatic overt statements on such scores in the not too distant future. Those refusing to stand on God's side in such situations will find themselves outside HIS CAMP--regardless of the label on their Christian organization.
For example, in Taipei, I was working with an incompetent to abusive Lutheran Missionary Committee from headquarters. The whole committee came out to Taipei and at the end of the week of workshop to try and heal and resolve some serious problems in their team, they had the Lord's Supper.
I didn't expect to be tolerated there but there was some discussion about it.
As I was waiting outside their room where they held the Lord's Supper I was intensely grieved in my spirit. It had nothing to do with personal rejection. I was grieved IN MY SPIRIT. It was tolerable and I didn't make a big fuss. I felt The Lord was seriously grieved as well. It was tolerable.
I believe we will see that level of acceptable toleration for a while. Then I believe we'll see a time closer to The Rapture or whatever END TIMES benchmark when God will deal very fiercely with anyone who excludes any true believers from any Christian activity led of His Spirit.
In this case, when the mission chairman was blustering and trying to destructively throw his weight around in a way that would hurt his own people, Holy Spirit rose up within me and I warned him that he'd better get on beam with what God was doing with his group or God would take him out of this life. 40 days later he was dead of a brain aneurysm.
There will be a lot of that kind of thing in coming months and years. A LOT.
The REVERENTIAL FEAR OF GOD WILL REIGN IN CHRISTENDOM.
Not fear of The Pope nor of the magicsterical nor of the INSTITUTION nor of missing out on Mary's white hanky distribution--instead, it will be THE ABJECT AWE AND FEAR OF GOD ALMIGHTY.
And when HIS MANIFEST PRESENCE is overt . . . there is NO ARGUMENT; NO EXCUSE; NO REBELLION; NO RATIONALIZATIONS ETC. THERE IS SUBMISSION AND LOVE AND WORSHIP . . . OR DEATH.
Also at that time, the primary leaders in group after group will be humble unknowns and folks not normally looked up to. Most of the fancy prancy famous leaders will mostly be taking a back seat if they are in the right camp at all. That will be true in all Christian groups that have any authentic Christians in them at all.
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/Theol_lord_supper1.pdf
That is a very good catechesis on the subject.
Thanks for your excellent reply.
Alas, I cannot give it it’s just due response until after new semester orientation this evening or tomrrow.
Much enjoyed the belly laughs.
I mostly agree with you about great portions of it. Just not all. Big surprise, I know.
More belly laughs. Thx.
I do hope you know that’s not my attitude.
Thank God you're not describing the Catholic Church.
We Catholics simply take Christ at His word in John 6.
I would think that these are the topics that a priest would raise with Alamo-Girl when she came to see him prior to the service to let him know of her desire to receive the Lord's Supper. As the celebrant is responsible before God for the conduct of the sacrament, it is only Christian charity for a visitor to present themselves to inform the celebrant of their intent so he isn't surprised at the altar.
These Catholic doctrines are also being affirmed during the sacrament as a matter of the unity of faith. Catholics/Lutherans or any others who practice 'close communion' do so out of love. Since we are not omniscient, we can't know the hearts of our visitors or members. At my church if you got ushered up for Communion, you would get it, but if you held heterodox beliefs or were not Christian at all, that redounds to our pastor to answer at his judgement. The practice of 'come one come all' Communion has a negative effect on the spiritual unity of a congregation, and that is why it is discouraged. My Church allows for pastoral discretion on the issue since the pastor is the on on the hook so to speak. I would hope if it became a habit that the Elders of the congregation would put an end to it.
Of course I do.
As the old saying goes:
Ahh, ya doesn't has to call me Johnson! You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or you can call me Johnny or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me RayJay, or you can call me RJ... but ya doesn't hafta call me Johnson
Thx, of course, it isn’t mine.
It's amazing how many people claim to be Christians but believe Christ incapable of doing what He promised.
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