Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
As well you should. :)
Fascinating, though that Google retention was able to find a post that the poster claimed did not exist in terms of the wording of the posting that I claimed that he posted. I pray that his understanding of both Scripture and geography may be enhanced.
Judith the Bible contains Imprecatory Psalms
“Do not be merciful to any wicked transgressors” Psalm 59:5
“Tread down our enemies”Psalm 60:12
“Let the angel of the Lord chase them. Let their way be dark and slippery” Psalm 35:6.
“May your face be against those who do evil to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth” Psalm 34:16.
“Let them be like a snail which melts away as it goes, like a stillborn child of a woman, that they may not see the sun.” Psalm 58:8
“Bring them down to the pit of destruction. May they not live out half their days;” Psalm 55:23.
“Let them be driven backward and brought to dishonor, let them be confounded because of their shame” Psalm 40:14,15.
“Destroy the transgressors. May the future of the wicked be cut off” Psalm 37:38.
“May the wicked workers of iniquity soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.” Psalm 37:2.
“Hide us from the secret plots of the wicked, from the rebellion of the workers of iniquity, who sharpen their tongue like a sword...” Psalm 64:2.
Paul quoted psalm 69 in the Romans a couple of times
Should we pray against the enemies of God? Many people are uncomfortable with that...but note Christ only prayed for those that were the Fathers, He did not pray for the unsaved..
The Bible is the word of God and last I look Christ is God.. If God wanted man taught from tradition, He would have modeled that in the new testament...remember that the scriptures 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
No one here is the author of any part of the Bible.
Great:
2 Thessalonians 2:14
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
Thats what I thought, there is no scripture, no words of Jesus or the apostles that confirm the TRADITION of Apostolic succession..
The pride of man that he believes he can assume the role of Christ and select apostles..
Gen 3: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Catholics love to appeal to this scripture to prove tradition..but it is a false and weak argument..If there was something that God wanted contained in scripture, that was necessary for salvation ..it would have been there..
Once again please show us where Jesus ever taught from tradition to give us a pattern, as he did in prayer..
Thanks for your gracious invite.
I don’t recall myself being overly bashful about such matters. LOL.
However, a slight quibble . . . I haven’t felt out of sorts per se last night nor this morning . . .
And, normally, given the gross chronic evils of so many of the globalist idiots . . . and the massive deaths they are all working towards . . . I’d not normally have an extra intense response to such a clueless evil politico.
I did, however, have an intense response . . . some label it one way, I experienced it as differently than those labels. I’m quite familiar with the labels and perspective involved on y’all’s side of things on such scores as well as Protty perspectives—which in most cases are not all THAT different.
Some folks recognize that there’s a fitting time to be quite declarative toward horrid evil and some don’t.
And, other than wanting to be sure I get all my administrivia done well in time for class, I’m not really pressured about much of anything.
All of that sounds wayyyyy too complicated to be the message of Christ. God did not intend to have each of stand before him at final judgment with a lawyer to explain our case. Jesus spoke in simple language to simple, uneducated people. If you can't explain it to children in simple parables and language similar to the Beatitudes you got it wrong.
INDEED.
Thanks tons.
However, we also must avoid rejoicing when our enemy falls.
Says who? Where? Not in Scripture. But what does
Scripture say?
Well, to begin with, Jesus wrote nothing except some unknown words in the dust. So that wasn't it. Since you guys like Paul, how about this:
1 Timothy 3: 14 6 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon. 15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
But it is important to look at these writings.
In your post #4,441, you posted that Irenaeus made the following statement in his important document, Against Heresies:
"They[heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith" - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.1
I always like looking at context, so I took a look at this and got the following context. This is the entire chapter 1 of Book 3 (CCEL version) (not really terribly long):
1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed "perfect knowledge," as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.
2. These have all declared to us that there is one God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets; and one Christ the Son of God. If any one do not agree to these truths, he despises the companions of the Lord; nay more, he despises Christ Himself the Lord; yea, he despises the Father also, and stands self-condemned, resisting and opposing his own salvation, as is the case with all heretics.
Now, unfortunately, I didn't see the phrase They[heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures. in either the New Advent (Catholic) online source or the CCEL (Calvin College, i.e., Protestant) online source.
But, interestingly enough, I did see a verification of what Catholics have taught all along: We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
Interesting, isn't it?
Interestingly, in Irenaeus (1.3.6), there is also the other statement which I find most illuminating:
6. Such, then, is the account which they (the Valentinians) all give of their Pleroma, and of the formation of the universe, striving, as they do, to adapt the good words of revelation to their own wicked inventions. And it is not only from the writings of the evangelists and the apostles that they endeavour to derive proofs for their opinions by means of perverse interpretations and deceitful expositions: they deal in the same way with the law and the prophets, which contain many parables and allegories that can frequently be drawn into various senses, according to the kind of exegesis to which they are subjected. And others of them, with great craftiness, adapted such parts of Scripture to their own figments, lead away captive from the truth those who do not retain a steadfast faith in one God, the Father Almighty, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
(Emphasis is mine, of course)
I've gone through a few of your other references provided and have found some other problems. For example, De unitate ecclesiae was written by Cyprian, not Augustine...and you really don't want me to quote paragraph 10 from it...or for that matter any of it. For example, your notation from the Summa was incorrect, as you didn't identify which book...and from my searching, your reference is incorrect and I don't find the question phrased the way you have it phrased anywhere that I can see.
So I guess what I'm wondering is if you could possibly provide me a link (or links) to your source(s)?
I appreciate that very much.
Shall we believe the words of the Psalmist over those of Jesus?
Get well soon brother..I will pray for you..
The Torah (minus Deuteronomy) is the word of God. If you are looking for books that gods have dictated, you must look elsewhere.
The only ones who don't seem to think it's important are the ones who know that they have no possible claim to it (you know like the sects that were started by unordained French lawyers).
As far as Scripture, see below:
Here is where our Lord instituted it:
18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Matthew 28:18-2)
Ans here is where Saint Paul describes to Saint Timothy his own generation, Timothy's (his pupil) generation, those Timothy will teach and those that they will teach:
And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:2)
Matthew 22: 34 19 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them [a scholar of the law] 20 tested him by asking, 36 "Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?" 37 He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself
We had this discussion earlier... no one can keep this law.. This is a summary of the ten commandments.. and even the catholic church admits only Christ could keep the law perfectly
As for your 2nd scripture..If you look you will see many ex Catholics/non Catholics in Haiti right as we write.. to say that people leave the Catholic church because they do not want to do "good works" I will partially agree with you..We do not want to do "good works " to be saved . Jesus completed that work.. We desire to do the works that God has ordained for us to do..FOR HIS GLORY not our good or glory
That's just another version of sola Scriptura again not found in Scripture. You arguing from silence, a very self-deceptive way to use Scripture.
And anyway, just how literal are you with Scripture, RN mom of seven?
I would never invoke 1 Timothy 2:11-12 against you.
But shouldn't you be invoking it against yourself?
2Ti 3:16 — All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Did Jesus Christ lie?
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
-- Matthew 25:31-46
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