Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
Page 20-23 of the following link is instructive. I apologize for the cut and paste aspect:
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/Theol_lord_supper1.pdf
They seem to assume that they can spew and spread such virulent bile in other relationships hereon, without it ever coming home to roost.
They are wrong.
We are integrated persons . . . more or less . . . some more and some less. LOL.
Whenever we hate, nurture bile and spite, vengeance, unfitting hostility . . . it influences our hearts that it broods in and tumbles out of . . . it influences our minds and particularly our spirits.
We don't turn such influences on and off like a light switch. Sooner or later they touch every relationship we have.
Oh, some folks are more skillful than others at putting on their Sunday persona like a coat and taking it off on Monday to skewer their business oponent.
The research literature calls such folks EXTRINSIC religionists. Their religion is not per se owned in their hearts, integrated into the fabric of their being and all aspects of their lives--lived as foundational values from the inside out. They have a host of problems from various addictions to other dysfunctional relationship stuff common to ATTACHMENT DISORDERED childhoods.
Interestingly, they can SOUND and ACT like the MOST INTENSE AND THE MOST DEVOUT. Scripture talks about such folks parading their prayers and their alms with long robes and trumpets etc.
I think that some folks are in that mode as they've fallen into it or been taught it as all that they've ever seen or known. I think that variety of folks may eventually be led of Holy Spirit into a more authentic relationship with GOD IF--THEY HAVE A HEART TO KNOW GOD SINCERELY, AT ALL.
Others, such a root of bitterness etc. has gripped their hearts in such a death grip for so long . . . and they have relished all the negative feelings, motives, dynamics and deeds soooo long, it would seem that there's little hope for their authentic conversion.
I just know from lots of personal experience and lots of counseling that we are what we are. Sooner or later what we are in one sphere and set of relationships will at least leak out and leak over into all the other relationships and spheres we operate in.
So I'm concerned for their marriages, their kids . . . we are talking lives and eternal souls here. And it grieves me.
So much of the hate labeling is sheer brazen projection. It's very soberingly sad. As one of the main targets, it doesn't cost me anything eterna. It actually puts currency in my heavenly bank. I'm utterly confident God knows my heart toward each of such characters--thankfully.
Yet, they are convinced they are utterly right and that God is on their side. And the bile fermenting and spewing continues on. And the rot deepens and expands within such hearts, souls and minds.
That's one of the reasons I'd still like to do whatever could be done to arrive at a way to insure more fully that Vatican related and TPCs' exchanges were more fully civil. I hate to see marriages hurt and children hurt from such constantly exercised bile, vengeance, hate.
It is likely that some of their rot is so extensive and so long standing that civil exchanges hereon would be a scant bandaid to their over all problems. Nevertheless, I'd still rather have this part of their lives more seriously Christian in tone and communications. Perhaps some benefit could leak over into their other relationships.
A real difficult part of the problem seems to be the compulsion to FLASH hostility etc. whenever the INSTITUTION or the IDEAS, habits, customs, rituals, etc. are in any way questioned, challenged or maligned at all.
It amazes me that in this day and age, more or less educated adults on such a forum have such chronic difficulty detaching themselves from the focus of their obsession. But then, that's the nature of obsession, isn't it. It's like taking the bottle from a desperate drunk. As long as there's a grip left, it's a big challenge.
I don't know how to get around that challenge. TPC's can write quite civily yet forcefully about our convictions and perspectives . . . and as long as our writing indicates any conviction that the Vatican, magicsterical et al are less than Mary's hanky perfect . . . the bile spewing is triggered and plentiful.
Such folks just seem almost genetically incapable of distinguishing the DIFFERENCE between
PERSON VS INSTITUTION
AND
IDEA, PHILOSOPHY, RELIGIOUS-SPIRITUAL CONVICTION VS PERSON
AND
INSTITUTION AS DISTINGUISHED FROM GOD'S PERSON HIMSELF
And such confabulations are starkly real and doggedly persistent.
Christ was chronically assailed by the RELIGIOUS rulers 2000 years ago. And even in terms of His disciples . . . He trusted Himself to no man for He knew what was in the heart of man.
Similarly, He was not . . . tarnished nor riled up by any man. He knew WHO HE WAS AND WHAT WAS IN HIM. NOTHING FROM THE OUTSIDE could rile Him up per se. He was riled at the money changers because of their affront to His Father's priorities within Him. He didn't waste time tilting at windmills. He had no need to assault in response to every insult of the Pharisees--even though he knew they were spiritual sons of satan.
And our identities, our persons, our all in all are to be HIDDEN IN CHRIST WHO IS TO BE OUR ALL IN ALL.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for the confabulation confusing GOD WITH INSTITUTION, WITH CUSTOMS, WITH RITUALS, WITH HABITS, WITH OBJECTS, WITH IDEAS, WITH !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! WITH . . . FORM . . . NO WAY for that to occur WITHOUT IDOLATRY. Doesn't matter whether it's a Pentecostal group or a Vatican related congregation.
That's one reason for the fierce Old Testament prohibition against ANY OBJECT associated with worship, particularly outside of the Holy of Holies, the Altars.
In the Holy of Holies GOD'S PRESENCE OVERWHELMED THE OBJECTS. No big risk there. The sacrificial altars didn't seem to carry a lot of that risk because everyone understood it was a BLOOD sacrifice sparing THEIR BLOOD--not something to take lightly or get all confused and mixed up about if one wanted one's sins forgiven and Heaven as home.
Yet, by Jesus' earthly time, evidently the Robes had become idols to some. They'd have railed at the idea. Yet, compared to God's call to humility and loving others, parading in their robes in haughty ways won out--took first place over God and God's priorities. That's idolatry.
The flesh loves pomp and circumstance and ritual. It's easier to feel elevated and confirmed by pomp, circumstance and ritual than to WAIT ON THE LORD, face to the floor . . . for HIS CONFIRMATION DIRECTLY in one's prayer closet. That's idolatry.
"AIN'T OUR DRAMATIC PAGENTRY GRAND!" [I'm so blessed and OK with God because I'm part of, supportive of, in with the grand pagentry.]
No. Form will never cut it. GOD is ONLY interested in RELATIONSHIP.
And it it far toooo easy for all of us to delude ourselves that our form of worship is the substance when it is not.
INDEED.
What an obtuse question!
1. To enjoy another opportunity of remembering Christ’s death in our behalf.
2. To share in that rememberance with Vatican related family members who also love Christ, though in a different !!!!TRADITION!!!!
3. To receive the Christian caring offered by the Priest in Christ’s Name.
4. To obey Scripture yet again.
5. To enjoy yet another opportunity to worship God in a special way and a special setting.
The practice of closing the communion has the same effect whether it is done by Catholic doctrine or by Lutheran doctrine etc.
In sum, the doctrine excludes those whose hearts and mind it cannot know on the presumption that the exclusion itself is the loving and merciful thing to do. Conversely, the Scriptures say "so let him."
I do not envy those in the Lutheran faith who established this doctrine for the very same reason: how shall they justify before Christ withholding what they believed to be His body and His blood?
Great post Quixie Doodle, I especially liked the spiritual sons of Satan
In Jesus' time, the idol was the Temple, with all its rigamarole: selling animals for sacrifice, short changing the tourists in the money exchange, and with the priests walking around it assuming holiness. Jesus destroyed it and built and continues to build, the new one. This new one is not of this world, therefore it is a spiritual church made up of believers. Communion is obligatory, wafers optional
Thanks for your kind words
and for the new nickname. LOL.
Much agree with your well worded post so accurately describing reality, imho.
Like there could possibly be an answer that any protestant or many Orthodox would accept.
And what is with that "Orthodox" thing? Or the Episcopalians, the Catholic Church is governed by bishops, after all. Or "Disciples of Christ?" Isn't that a universal concept? "Assemblies of God?"
Life is too short for this stuff.
Yes and no.
Yes, life is too short for great stinking piles of this stuff.
No, a lot of us Prottys have plenty of charity with which to entertain mutually fitting labels etc. We’ll just no longer accept the unreasonable !!!!CONTROL!!!!, reality defining DEMANDS on our use of words etc. from the Hyper Romanists/Vatican Affiliates who seem to pride themselves in being more VATICAN PURE than the Pope.
This is why I read your posts!
I'm going to have to think about it, but it's a very interesting point that the Temple had become an idol to the Jews.
My hope for unity is not so much for "our common faith in Jesus" since their organizational structure prohibits any true ecumenical agreement, lest by God's providence he clears the way for such unity, my concern is more to try find unity on anthropological issues such that it allows freedom to thrive and clears the way for the gospel to be preached.
I think that fits the reality I read in the NT.
Excellent post.
Thank you.
Acts 26
18to open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith that is in Me.’
= = =
May we receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith that is in Jesus.
Thanks for your kind reply.
In Matthew 16:17-9, Christ does not call St. Peter the Chief Cornerstone, making your observation correct but irrelevant to the primacy of St. Peter.
Jacob's ladder is a vision of the temple and the true temple is Christ and His Church
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Religious people often lose track of the One that is to be worshipped, confusing worship with big edifices, ritual, a man made system. Jesus changed that, but many people want the outer trappings of "religion". I believe many prophets, Jeremiah especially, called them out on this temple worship, I will check. Even today, men want to ignore the one Christ builds and seek to build new ones.
And vis a vis that big edifice I posted to you yesterday, that thing in Dubai, compare the tower of Babel to manmade religion, trying to reach up to heaven, up to God.
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