They seem to assume that they can spew and spread such virulent bile in other relationships hereon, without it ever coming home to roost.
They are wrong.
We are integrated persons . . . more or less . . . some more and some less. LOL.
Whenever we hate, nurture bile and spite, vengeance, unfitting hostility . . . it influences our hearts that it broods in and tumbles out of . . . it influences our minds and particularly our spirits.
We don't turn such influences on and off like a light switch. Sooner or later they touch every relationship we have.
Oh, some folks are more skillful than others at putting on their Sunday persona like a coat and taking it off on Monday to skewer their business oponent.
The research literature calls such folks EXTRINSIC religionists. Their religion is not per se owned in their hearts, integrated into the fabric of their being and all aspects of their lives--lived as foundational values from the inside out. They have a host of problems from various addictions to other dysfunctional relationship stuff common to ATTACHMENT DISORDERED childhoods.
Interestingly, they can SOUND and ACT like the MOST INTENSE AND THE MOST DEVOUT. Scripture talks about such folks parading their prayers and their alms with long robes and trumpets etc.
I think that some folks are in that mode as they've fallen into it or been taught it as all that they've ever seen or known. I think that variety of folks may eventually be led of Holy Spirit into a more authentic relationship with GOD IF--THEY HAVE A HEART TO KNOW GOD SINCERELY, AT ALL.
Others, such a root of bitterness etc. has gripped their hearts in such a death grip for so long . . . and they have relished all the negative feelings, motives, dynamics and deeds soooo long, it would seem that there's little hope for their authentic conversion.
I just know from lots of personal experience and lots of counseling that we are what we are. Sooner or later what we are in one sphere and set of relationships will at least leak out and leak over into all the other relationships and spheres we operate in.
So I'm concerned for their marriages, their kids . . . we are talking lives and eternal souls here. And it grieves me.
So much of the hate labeling is sheer brazen projection. It's very soberingly sad. As one of the main targets, it doesn't cost me anything eterna. It actually puts currency in my heavenly bank. I'm utterly confident God knows my heart toward each of such characters--thankfully.
Yet, they are convinced they are utterly right and that God is on their side. And the bile fermenting and spewing continues on. And the rot deepens and expands within such hearts, souls and minds.
That's one of the reasons I'd still like to do whatever could be done to arrive at a way to insure more fully that Vatican related and TPCs' exchanges were more fully civil. I hate to see marriages hurt and children hurt from such constantly exercised bile, vengeance, hate.
It is likely that some of their rot is so extensive and so long standing that civil exchanges hereon would be a scant bandaid to their over all problems. Nevertheless, I'd still rather have this part of their lives more seriously Christian in tone and communications. Perhaps some benefit could leak over into their other relationships.
A real difficult part of the problem seems to be the compulsion to FLASH hostility etc. whenever the INSTITUTION or the IDEAS, habits, customs, rituals, etc. are in any way questioned, challenged or maligned at all.
It amazes me that in this day and age, more or less educated adults on such a forum have such chronic difficulty detaching themselves from the focus of their obsession. But then, that's the nature of obsession, isn't it. It's like taking the bottle from a desperate drunk. As long as there's a grip left, it's a big challenge.
I don't know how to get around that challenge. TPC's can write quite civily yet forcefully about our convictions and perspectives . . . and as long as our writing indicates any conviction that the Vatican, magicsterical et al are less than Mary's hanky perfect . . . the bile spewing is triggered and plentiful.
Such folks just seem almost genetically incapable of distinguishing the DIFFERENCE between
PERSON VS INSTITUTION
AND
IDEA, PHILOSOPHY, RELIGIOUS-SPIRITUAL CONVICTION VS PERSON
AND
INSTITUTION AS DISTINGUISHED FROM GOD'S PERSON HIMSELF
And such confabulations are starkly real and doggedly persistent.
Christ was chronically assailed by the RELIGIOUS rulers 2000 years ago. And even in terms of His disciples . . . He trusted Himself to no man for He knew what was in the heart of man.
Similarly, He was not . . . tarnished nor riled up by any man. He knew WHO HE WAS AND WHAT WAS IN HIM. NOTHING FROM THE OUTSIDE could rile Him up per se. He was riled at the money changers because of their affront to His Father's priorities within Him. He didn't waste time tilting at windmills. He had no need to assault in response to every insult of the Pharisees--even though he knew they were spiritual sons of satan.
And our identities, our persons, our all in all are to be HIDDEN IN CHRIST WHO IS TO BE OUR ALL IN ALL.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for the confabulation confusing GOD WITH INSTITUTION, WITH CUSTOMS, WITH RITUALS, WITH HABITS, WITH OBJECTS, WITH IDEAS, WITH !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! WITH . . . FORM . . . NO WAY for that to occur WITHOUT IDOLATRY. Doesn't matter whether it's a Pentecostal group or a Vatican related congregation.
That's one reason for the fierce Old Testament prohibition against ANY OBJECT associated with worship, particularly outside of the Holy of Holies, the Altars.
In the Holy of Holies GOD'S PRESENCE OVERWHELMED THE OBJECTS. No big risk there. The sacrificial altars didn't seem to carry a lot of that risk because everyone understood it was a BLOOD sacrifice sparing THEIR BLOOD--not something to take lightly or get all confused and mixed up about if one wanted one's sins forgiven and Heaven as home.
Yet, by Jesus' earthly time, evidently the Robes had become idols to some. They'd have railed at the idea. Yet, compared to God's call to humility and loving others, parading in their robes in haughty ways won out--took first place over God and God's priorities. That's idolatry.
The flesh loves pomp and circumstance and ritual. It's easier to feel elevated and confirmed by pomp, circumstance and ritual than to WAIT ON THE LORD, face to the floor . . . for HIS CONFIRMATION DIRECTLY in one's prayer closet. That's idolatry.
"AIN'T OUR DRAMATIC PAGENTRY GRAND!" [I'm so blessed and OK with God because I'm part of, supportive of, in with the grand pagentry.]
No. Form will never cut it. GOD is ONLY interested in RELATIONSHIP.
And it it far toooo easy for all of us to delude ourselves that our form of worship is the substance when it is not.
Great post Quixie Doodle, I especially liked the spiritual sons of Satan
In Jesus' time, the idol was the Temple, with all its rigamarole: selling animals for sacrifice, short changing the tourists in the money exchange, and with the priests walking around it assuming holiness. Jesus destroyed it and built and continues to build, the new one. This new one is not of this world, therefore it is a spiritual church made up of believers. Communion is obligatory, wafers optional
Excellent post.
Thank you.
Actually, I'm a bit increasingly concerned for some of their closer relationships.
They seem to assume that they can spew and spread such virulent bile in other relationships hereon, without it ever coming home to roost.
They are wrong.
We are integrated persons . . . more or less . . . some more and some less. LOL.
Whenever we hate, nurture bile and spite, vengeance, unfitting hostility . . . it influences our hearts that it broods in and tumbles out of . . . it influences our minds and particularly our spirits.
We don't turn such influences on and off like a light switch. Sooner or later they touch every relationship we have.
Oh, some folks are more skillful than others at putting on their Sunday persona like a coat and taking it off on Monday to skewer their business oponent.
The research literature calls such folks EXTRINSIC religionists. Their religion is not per se owned in their hearts, integrated into the fabric of their being and all aspects of their lives--lived as foundational values from the inside out. They have a host of problems from various addictions to other dysfunctional relationship stuff common to ATTACHMENT DISORDERED childhoods.
Interestingly, they can SOUND and ACT like the MOST INTENSE AND THE MOST DEVOUT. Scripture talks about such folks parading their prayers and their alms with long robes and trumpets etc.
I think that some folks are in that mode as they've fallen into it or been taught it as all that they've ever seen or known. I think that variety of folks may eventually be led of Holy Spirit into a more authentic relationship with GOD IF--THEY HAVE A HEART TO KNOW GOD SINCERELY, AT ALL.
Others, such a root of bitterness etc. has gripped their hearts in such a death grip for so long . . . and they have relished all the negative feelings, motives, dynamics and deeds soooo long, it would seem that there's little hope for their authentic conversion.
I just know from lots of personal experience and lots of counseling that we are what we are. Sooner or later what we are in one sphere and set of relationships will at least leak out and leak over into all the other relationships and spheres we operate in.
So I'm concerned for their marriages, their kids . . . we are talking lives and eternal souls here. And it grieves me.
So much of the hate labeling is sheer brazen projection. It's very soberingly sad. As one of the main targets, it doesn't cost me anything eterna. It actually puts currency in my heavenly bank. I'm utterly confident God knows my heart toward each of such characters--thankfully.
Yet, they are convinced they are utterly right and that God is on their side. And the bile fermenting and spewing continues on. And the rot deepens and expands within such hearts, souls and minds.
That's one of the reasons I'd still like to do whatever could be done to arrive at a way to insure more fully that Vatican related and TPCs' exchanges were more fully civil. I hate to see marriages hurt and children hurt from such constantly exercised bile, vengeance, hate.
It is likely that some of their rot is so extensive and so long standing that civil exchanges hereon would be a scant bandaid to their over all problems. Nevertheless, I'd still rather have this part of their lives more seriously Christian in tone and communications. Perhaps some benefit could leak over into their other relationships.
Up through this point, I'm with you 100% -- but it works both ways. We ALL have ivory towers (well, maybe not you, but the rest of us do)...some may be visible, some may not be visible.
A real difficult part of the problem seems to be the compulsion to FLASH hostility etc. whenever the INSTITUTION or the IDEAS, habits, customs, rituals, etc. are in any way questioned, challenged or maligned at all.
There's where you are mistaken.
It's not that the ideas, habits, customs, rituals, etc., are questioned or challenged...it's how they are challenged or questioned. That how turns a question or a challenge into maligning behavior.
If a person was to assert a challenge on, say, our veneration of the Blessed Virgin, they could do so in multiple ways. They could:
My response when encountering the second type of input is typically just to blow the person off. I have tried the patient response before, but it just doesn't seem to work. And, as you rightly point out, my blood pressure sure doesn't need the excessive stress at this juncture in my life.
But, it sounds like you are defending the person who screams "Mariolatry" and condemns the person who has the vigorous response. Do we have a splinter and plank situation here, my friend? I think we all have something we can learn about how to better bear the cross of Christ. I don't know how to get around that challenge. TPC's can write quite civily yet forcefully about our convictions and perspectives . . . and as long as our writing indicates any conviction that the Vatican, magicsterical et al are less than Mary's hanky perfect . . . the bile spewing is triggered and plentiful. Such folks just seem almost genetically incapable of distinguishing the DIFFERENCE between PERSON VS INSTITUTION And such confabulations are starkly real and doggedly persistent.
AND
IDEA, PHILOSOPHY, RELIGIOUS-SPIRITUAL CONVICTION VS PERSON
AND
INSTITUTION AS DISTINGUISHED FROM GOD'S PERSON HIMSELF
The biggest thing I would suggest is to pray that your writing is civil before you hit the "post" button.
The problem is that the institution of the Church is part of our beliefs. Here's a hint for you: when we read church (ekklesia) in our Bibles, unless it refers specifically to a particular Church (e.g., the Church in Thessalonica) or to some other grouping of people, our default reading of that is that the institution of the Church was immediately and directly established by Christ. (Of course, the institution, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has evolved considerably since that time, but it is the same institution) And we believe that this institution, through its ministers and the sacraments they minister, is directly involved with our salvation and spiritual growth. So when you attack the institution of the Church, you are attacking something very near and dear to our hearts.
I fully recognize that you do not agree with the above. And so I full well recognize that an attack on whatever institutional community that you may be involved with (A/G's, UPC, non-denominational Holiness, or whatever), if any, would likely not be perceived by you as such a sensitive matter.
Christ was chronically assailed by the RELIGIOUS rulers 2000 years ago. And even in terms of His disciples . . . He trusted Himself to no man for He knew what was in the heart of man. Similarly, He was not . . . tarnished nor riled up by any man. He knew WHO HE WAS AND WHAT WAS IN HIM. NOTHING FROM THE OUTSIDE could rile Him up per se. He was riled at the money changers because of their affront to His Father's priorities within Him. He didn't waste time tilting at windmills. He had no need to assault in response to every insult of the Pharisees--even though he knew they were spiritual sons of satan. And our identities, our persons, our all in all are to be HIDDEN IN CHRIST WHO IS TO BE OUR ALL IN ALL. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for the confabulation confusing GOD WITH INSTITUTION, WITH CUSTOMS, WITH RITUALS, WITH HABITS, WITH OBJECTS, WITH IDEAS, WITH !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! WITH . . . FORM . . . NO WAY for that to occur WITHOUT IDOLATRY. Doesn't matter whether it's a Pentecostal group or a Vatican related congregation.
I would challenge one statement, above.
When you stated, Christ was chronically assailed by the RELIGIOUS rulers 2000 years ago
I would point out that Christ was assailed by many of the religious rulers who had confidence in their ritual at the exclusion of the heart behind it. Jesus' long monologue against the scribes and Pharisees contained in Matthew 23 makes that clear. Jesus never condemned the ritual. He condemned the ritual for ritual's sake. There is a big difference.
If you are talking about somebody who is into the ritual for ritual's sake, while not amending their lives, I'm all with you...and I would bet that 99.9% of the Catholics who post on this forum would be right there with you as well.
I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the teachings of the Church are right there with you as well:
Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him (para 153)
Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.
It's funny. It the "ritual of Baptism," an inquiry is made. The first question asked of the one to be baptized is, "What do you ask of God's Church?". And the response of the one to be baptized is: "Faith!"
(And please keep in mind, if the intent is not there on the part of the one to be baptized, the baptism is considered to be invalid)
So for us, the prime mover is God's grace. Our response to God's grace is faith...and then action.
If God's grace isn't involved, there won't be faith and all of the action in the world is meaningless. (Sorrowfully, that may actually end up surprising some folks in the end)