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Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?
Me

Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: 1holyapostolicchurch; apostates; catholic; catholicbashing; catholicwhiners; devilworshippers; eckleburghers; greeks; heathen; orthodoxyistheone; papistcrybabies; proddiecatholic; robot; romanistispejorative; romanists; romanistwhinefest; romannamecallers; russians
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To: annalex; boatbums
FK: maybe a case could be made for heresy?

May be. Why is it important to you? Remember, aside from the technical meaning the word is used broadly. "Dumping the changed oil in the sewer is heretical".

I am half-joking about the fact that being a heretic is not the lowest thing to be, as the word is often used. There could actually be a back-handed compliment in there in acknowledging the Christianity of the heretic. And, I do have an interest in my knowledgeable Catholic friends considering me a Christian. :) Also, non-Christians would have no credibility at all on the vast majority of topics here on the RF.

2,641 posted on 01/13/2010 2:03:51 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Mad Dawg

Well put post.

Thanks.


2,642 posted on 01/13/2010 2:06:06 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: RnMomof7; NoGrayZone

Plus, is it Nograyzone who asked why do people bow and kiss Peter’s ring? Peter himself would not have allowed it. The regenerated Peter that is.


2,643 posted on 01/13/2010 2:06:42 PM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: RnMomof7
"Well if you break one of the commandments you are judged as breaking them all .... so if you have already broken one..you will be in DEEP trouble on judgement day."

If you are right and I am among the elect then I am not really responsible for my decisions and breaking any or all of the commandments is of no consequence. If I'm not among the elect then no amount of good behavior is sufficient. That being said I can go out and oppress half of Switzerland and have nothing to worry about because it wont change a thing. If I am right then I can choose to answer the call to salvation and act accordingly.

2,644 posted on 01/13/2010 2:22:21 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Forest Keeper
"And, I do have an interest in my knowledgeable Catholic friends considering me a Christian."

We all know one doesn't need to be perfect to be a Christian, just forgiven. According to the Catholic Church, which I agree with, that is between you and God. The Church does not even make that judgment on those it excommunicates.

2,645 posted on 01/13/2010 2:25:43 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
My works alone are not enough to gain Salvation but they are enough to lose it.

So your saved by faith and kept by your works.. who is the savior again??:)

2,646 posted on 01/13/2010 2:31:30 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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To: Natural Law
If you are right and I am among the elect then I am not really responsible for my decisions and breaking any or all of the commandments is of no consequence. If I'm not among the elect then no amount of good behavior is sufficient. That being said I can go out and oppress half of Switzerland and have nothing to worry about because it wont change a thing. If I am right then I can choose to answer the call to salvation and act accordingly.

Nice try , but a misstatement of reformed doctrine :)

2,647 posted on 01/13/2010 2:33:09 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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To: 1000 silverlings; NoGrayZone
Plus, is it Nograyzone who asked why do people bow and kiss Peter’s ring? Peter himself would not have allowed it. The regenerated Peter that is.

IF Peter ever had a ring he would have sold it so he could spread the gospel

You are so right, Peter never considered himself "pope", never considered himself infallible, and he worked as hard as any of the apostles to bring the gospel to the unsaved..He did not have a crown nor did men lay prostrate before him..He would have rebuked that behavior as only belonging to God.. So sad they use him to justify that man centered behavior

2,648 posted on 01/13/2010 2:38:01 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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To: Quix
However . . .

You'd hate to be wrong again.

2,649 posted on 01/13/2010 2:41:19 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Quix

Sarah and Glen Beck have been talking about God...very interesting. Two different denominations on the same page...


2,650 posted on 01/13/2010 2:43:52 PM PST by caww
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To: RnMomof7
"So your saved by faith and kept by your works.. who is the savior again??:)

What do you believe the meaning of Matthew 25:31-46 means? The Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work on our salvation. The calling and the opportunity for salvation are God's gift, without Him there is no salvation.

2,651 posted on 01/13/2010 2:43:53 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7
If you are right and I am among the elect then I am not really responsible for my decisions and breaking any or all of the commandments is of no consequence

There you go, that was carnal, unregenerate Israel's attitude too. Might want to read how that worked out for them.

2,652 posted on 01/13/2010 2:46:06 PM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: 1000 silverlings
"There you go, that was carnal, unregenerate Israel's attitude too. Might want to read how that worked out for them."

That clearly wasn'y my belief, I was merely playing the devils advocate (pardon the pun).

2,653 posted on 01/13/2010 2:54:24 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law; 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg
What do you believe the meaning of Matthew 25:31-46 means? The Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work on our salvation. The calling and the opportunity for salvation are God's gift, without Him there is no salvation.

Please reread matthew 25.. notice the sheep were always sheep and the goats were always goat..He separated them BEFORE His judgement.. So the sheep did not become goats because of the judgement..

This scripture is an end times scripture dealing with a judgement of rewards not condemnation.. The sheep acted as they did BECAUSE they were sheep..the goats acted as they did BECAUSE they were goats..

Their works came out of their hearts.. regenerated hearts in the case of the sheep and reprobate hearts in the case of the goats..

You are taking credit for the work of Christ when you attribute your salvation to YOUR works..If salvation was dependent on works..Christ died in vain

2,654 posted on 01/13/2010 3:07:31 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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To: Forest Keeper

INDEED.


2,655 posted on 01/13/2010 3:20:12 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: 1000 silverlings
"We know that we can't trust men to tell us the truth and we know we can't trust the devil, so we trust the written Word. that's where we're coming from"

Yes yes.....Amen!!!

2,656 posted on 01/13/2010 3:21:54 PM PST by NoGrayZone (SARAH PALIN IS MY CUP OF TEA!)
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To: Petronski

WRONG . . .

However . . .

No need to make tooooooo big an acknowledgement of that fact.


2,657 posted on 01/13/2010 3:22:04 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: caww

PRAISE GOD!

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.


2,658 posted on 01/13/2010 3:22:48 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: RnMomof7; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; HarleyD; wmfights; Gamecock

I won’t work thru all the scriptures you cite, but let’s take a look at a few, at least...

“God commanded us to keep the ten Commandments, is that possible?”

Yes. For example, “You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”

In Matthew 5, Jesus teaches what Paul does - that the Law is spiritual, and that if we truly understand it, then we will realize our natural self is in rebellion against it. However...Can I not murder? Yep. Can I not steal? Yep. If I see something I want, and don’t have the money, can I not steal it? Yep.

It seems a bit odd to cite Leviticus 11:44:

” 41 “Every swarming thing that swarms on the ground is detestable; it shall not be eaten. 42Whatever goes on its belly, and whatever goes on all fours, or whatever has many feet, any swarming thing that swarms on the ground, you shall not eat, for they are detestable. 43 You shall not make yourselves detestable with any swarming thing that swarms, and you shall not defile yourselves with them, and become unclean through them. 44For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. 45 For I am the LORD who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.”

Trust me - I don’t eat insects that swarm on the ground, and I don’t eat centipedes!

But as for being holy - none of this suggests a man cannot realize he is NOT holy and needs salvation. And many non-Christians realize that as well, without converting. A great many folks wrestle with guilt without giving in to God’s way of salvation.

Next on the list is Ephesians 1: “4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will”

He chose us in him before the foundation of the world...to repent? No, “that we should be holy and blameless before him”. This is consistent with the idea that, before the world began, he chose that those who believe will be adopted as sons - willingly obedient sons, not compelled slaves - and out predestination is to end as “sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will”, not fearful or compelled robots.

“To have true repentance one must hate sin.”

Agreed. And when God reveals himself to us - for it is God who seeks us - we then may hate what we see in His light, or we may not.

John 6: “35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.” Not all who encounter God will believe, but whoever [anyone] who comes will not hunger, and whoever [anyone] who believes shall not thirst.

“We come and we confess not because we were seeking Him, but because he sought us.”

Amen! Completely scriptural!

Next is John 1: “11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

To all who did receive him - who responded to him, opening the door to him - WHO BELIEVED IN HIS NAME - he gave the right to become children of God! And we are born, not of blood or flesh or because we bridged the chasm with our mighty will, forcing God to accept us, but by God’s grace!

Notice that we see the same verse, but do not have to interpret it the same way. But MY interpretation is consistent with all those verses commanding us to repent, and to believe, and saying we are saved by grace THRU FAITH, not grace thru election.

So my interpretation makes more verses make sense...a sign of good interpreting!

John 6: “37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

Certainly one of the most powerful arguments for predestination. At least I thought so, when I read James White’s comments on it. But then I read Romans 8...”For those whom he foreknew he also predestined”.

An earlier post tried to make ‘foreknew’ sound indistinguishable from predestine, but it is mentioned separately, and foreknew means fore knew. Before know. It means “to know beforehand”.

Thus a plausible interpretation is that those he foreknew, he predestined, justified, sanctified and glorified.

In fact, that is more than a reasonable interpretation. It is Romans 8:29-30. God-breathed!

Yes, lots of humans repent because they don’t like the results of their actions. Lots repent, but do so on THEIR terms, expecting, like Cain, for God to accept them THEIR way. But God says, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”

Hebrews 12: “15See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.”

Yep. “For you know that afterward”! And many will repent on Judgment Day, but it will be too late!

Acts 11: “If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

By all means - it is GOD who grants that Gentiles, like Jews, can repent to life. God is sovereign, and HE has declared that repentance leads to life, not a life of good works. If I were God, it would be the latter - but I am not God, and HE grants salvation via repentance.

Calvin prefers a second interpretation, but give credit where due. He mentions both:

“Then hath God. Luke doth briefly declare in these words what the gospel containeth, and to what end it tendeth, to wit, that God may reconcile men to himself, being renewed by his Spirit. The word repentance alone is expressed in this place, but when he addeth unto life, it appeareth plainly that it is not separated from faith. Therefore, whosoever will rightly profit in the gospel, let him put off the old man, and think upon newness of life, (Ephesians 4:22;) that done, let him know for a certainty that he is not called in vain unto repentance, but that there is salvation prepared for him in Christ. So shall it come to pass, that the hope and assurance of salvation shall rest upon the free mercy of God alone, and that the forgiveness of sins shall, notwithstanding, be no cause of sluggish security. This member, to give repentance, may be expounded two manner of ways; either that God granted to the Gentiles place for repentance, when as he would have his gospel preached to them; or that he circumcised their hearts by his Spirit, as Moses saith, (Deuteronomy 30:6,) and made them fleshy hearts of stony hearts, as saith Ezekiel, (Ezekiel 11:19.) For it is a work proper to God alone to fashion and to beget men again, that they may begin to be new creatures; and it agreeth better with this second sense; it is not so much racked, and it agreeth better with the phrase [phraseology] of Scripture.”

And I agree with Calvin, although not in quite the way he wants, for it IS God who regenerates man, and God alone. None of us can be born again by our wills, but by obeying what God requires: “28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Since you mention this verse as supporting your side, let me point out that Calvin disagrees:

“That you believe in him whom he hath sent. What is the import of the word believe, we have explained under the Third Chapter. It ought always to be remembered that, in order to have a full perception of the power of faith, we must understand what Christ is, in whom we believe, and why he was given to us by the Father. It is idle sophistry, under the pretext of this passage, to maintain that we are justified by works, if faith justifies, because it is likewise called a work First, it is plain enough that Christ does not speak with strict accuracy, when he calls faith a work, just as Paul makes a comparison between the law of faith and the law of works, (Romans 3:27.) Secondly, when we affirm that men are not justified by works, we mean works by the merit of which men may obtain favor with God. Now faith brings nothing to God, but, on the contrary, places man before God as empty and poor, that he may be filled with Christ and with his grace. It is, therefore, if we may be allowed the expression, a passive work, to which no reward can be paid, and it bestows on man no other righteousness than that which he receives from Christ.”

Another you cite...and I’m running out of time...is Ephesians 2:8, which you say means that FAITH is the gift of God. Barnes, who agrees with predestination, writes:

“And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—\~touto\~—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—\~pistiv\~ —is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one.”

Calvin disparages free will, but seems to agree with my point:

“For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

Ought we not then to be silent about free-will, and good intentions, and fancied preparations, and merits, and satisfactions? There is none of these which does not claim a share of praise in the salvation of men; so that the praise of grace would not, as Paul shews, remain undiminished. When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation.”

In his second paragraph, he says free will leads to pride, but no one freely accepting the offer of God to forgive ones sins has any claim to pride. If anything, I’ve seen more signs of pride among the “Elect” than those of us glad to accept what God has done.

Think of the Jews...they boasted of being God’s Chosen People. And like them, quite a few of the elect seem to think of themselves as “God’s Chosen People”, and they swell up like a bullfrog!


2,659 posted on 01/13/2010 3:49:52 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Natural Law; 1000 silverlings

“The difference is that in true Christianity God elects according to His good pleasure alone (Ephesians 1) and in all other pagan philosophies some entity other than God supposedly elects or men elect themselves.”

Ephesians 1:

“In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”

” 11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Predestine refers to a destination, not the means.

“[God] predestined us [believers] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will”

Got it!

And note verse 14: In him you also, In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit...

Still God’s work, we don’t do it by ourselves, but “when you heard the word of truth...and believed”, we “were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit”.

Is THAT irresistible grace? At a minimum, it must be assumed to be so, for the passage does NOT teach it thus.


2,660 posted on 01/13/2010 4:01:34 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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