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Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?
Me

Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: 1holyapostolicchurch; apostates; catholic; catholicbashing; catholicwhiners; devilworshippers; eckleburghers; greeks; heathen; orthodoxyistheone; papistcrybabies; proddiecatholic; robot; romanistispejorative; romanists; romanistwhinefest; romannamecallers; russians
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To: Mad Dawg

LOL.


1,781 posted on 01/11/2010 12:03:30 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: esquirette
Paul wrote this to believers. Romans 8 was written for the benefit of those who have heard the Gospel - the good news that there can be peace with God. It is in the Bible, on Earth, now. Souls in heaven no longer need that assurance.

There is no therefore no condemnation is written to people who are alive - on this side of eternity - in the body. They are being told there is no condemnation for those who put their trust in Christ.

Amen! Why any church would want to deny this assurance to believers is a sad puzzle.

"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36

1,782 posted on 01/11/2010 12:06:47 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"The Bible is a "non-all inclusive compendium?"

What Christian believes things like that?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 120, states; "It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books."

Note that the Catholic Bible, which contains more writings than yours, is a more complete compendium.

1,783 posted on 01/11/2010 12:12:12 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Mad Dawg; boatbums; NoGrayZone; Quix; caww; Dr. Eckleburg; Petronski; annalex
FK: I would think that the vast majority of Protestants WOULD get heartburn from this because it presupposes the possibility that Christ would PREFER (at least in some circumstances) that prayer be directed away from Him and to another.

I have too much to think about for one day, but while I happily pray the Rosary and 'send up' my little Marian 'dart' prayers, I don't have in my heart taking time off from being with IHS.

OK, and what I'm driving at is whether you (you all) share the exact same substance and specifics of your supplications to Mary that you do with God. I am asserting that sometimes, some Catholics would ask Mary (or another Saint) for certain things that would then not later be repeated in a prayer to God. Without claiming to know anyone's heart I can report from my own casual observations that many times a Catholic has told me that he/she has prayed to Mary concerning some specific thing, but I hear considerably less that the same Catholic has prayed directly to God about the same matter. So, that just makes me think ...... :)

1,784 posted on 01/11/2010 12:13:56 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: blue-duncan; Mr Rogers
Every Baptist church that I have attended has had a Calvinist Pastor. My father was a Dispensational, Calvinist, Baptist Pastor for over 70 years; never gave an altar call, just trusted the preaching and teaching of the Word and the Holy Spirit to bring people to a realization of their election.

Amen!

Write a book!!! A 70-year pastorate is an accomplishment few men have achieved (not to mention the joy of fathering a FReeper.)

1,785 posted on 01/11/2010 12:14:51 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Forest Keeper
Dear Forest Keeper,

“OK, and what I'm driving at is whether you (you all) share the exact same substance and specifics of your supplications to Mary that you do with God.”

Really good question!

A critical difference is that we offer the Sacrifice of the Mass only to God. For us, the Mass is true worship. The Mass is offered ONLY to God (although it may be offered on behalf of others, as a form of intercession).

Just talking to God, although that can be a part of worship, isn't sufficient as worship. Thus, talking to any saint, praying to the court for relief (that's what they say in the courts here in Maryland, that we “pray relief” of the court), whatever, just yacking with people, whether on earth or in Heaven, doesn't qualify, by itself, as worship.

But of course, for folks who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox, you don't accept what we believe about the Mass.

However, it would be nice if you did recognize that for us, the Mass, the Eucharist, is the source and summit of our faith, the keystone of our worship of the Most Holy Trinity.


sitetest

1,786 posted on 01/11/2010 12:21:43 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Natural Law
You are continuing to confuse the act of prayer with the act of worship.

No, I'm not.

You cannot show us any Scripture that says we are to pray to anyone but God because there is no Scripture that says that.

OTC, Scripture says we are to pray to and make known our needs and fears and thoughts to God alone.

That is simple, but not "simplistic." And yet even still some RCs do not believe the words of God.

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." -- Phil. 4:6

1,787 posted on 01/11/2010 12:23:16 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Natural Law
Thank you oh so very much for sharing that link and excerpt, dear sister in Christ, and thank you for the beautiful Scripture verse!

Of a Truth, I perceive that God the Father has revealed Himself in four different ways: 1) through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, 2) through the Holy Spirit who indwells us, 3) through Scripture and 4) through His Creation both spiritual and physical.

I perceive no conflicts at all in these revelations. But I'm sure that is due to my personal epistemology (how I know what I know and how certain I know that I actually know it.)

God's Name is I AM.

1,788 posted on 01/11/2010 12:25:55 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Forest Keeper; sitetest
It's a fine question. I'm going to have to watch myself and see what I do.

I think sitetest's going in a useful direction in that my commo with Mary or Dominic is really of a different kind from my a lot (not all) of my commo with God. Sooner or later, though I think I cover the same stuff, as far as specific requests go.

St. Anthony and the car keys: it's almost always that I ask Jesus first, then Anthony, and then thank 'em both.

But there's something "surrounding" about God that I don't think/feel about individual saints. I mean if I mean to be with God intentionally, I don't often make a lot of petitions. Generally it's more a matter of just being there. Yeah, I know that's inchoate. Sorry.

1,789 posted on 01/11/2010 12:37:22 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"You cannot show us any Scripture that says we are to pray to anyone but God because there is no Scripture that says that."

Since the bible wasn't written in English, but rather translated into English at a much later date, why don't you tell me which meanings you refer to.

1,790 posted on 01/11/2010 12:44:27 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law; the_conscience
NL:
Their attack depends on avoiding reason. Specifically they attackers will avoid distinguishing between prayer and worship and will avoid saying what they mean by prayer.

My exchange with the_conscience is clarifying. There is no need perceived by their side to make sense, to use English, to talk about ideas and their consequences. In fact, their purposes are better served if meanings are obscured. If we have trouble understanding their points (on the tenuous assumption that they actually HAVE points) there is no burden on them to explain themselves. Our not understanding their inchoate notions is, in their eyes vindication. That's why one rarely sees anything but a vast barrage of quotes.

A few of them make arguments and show the relationships among the ideas they express. But that's unusual.

Different strokes, but some people, not having arguments, are not worth arguing with.

1,791 posted on 01/11/2010 12:46:57 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mr Rogers; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; wmfights; RnMomof7; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; ...
I couldn't reconcile the L & I in TULIP with scripture.

If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.

IIRC I sent you the brilliant work by Calvinist Baptist preacher, Arthur Pink, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. You should read it sometime, especially chapter five.

As for Calvinist Baptists, I'd estimate there are more Calvinist Baptists in these discussions on FR than Presbyterians.

As for free will and predestination both being true, I find that an enormous and silly cop-out. Men are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, according to the will of God.

All of life is determined by God, not men. We either have been named by God as one of His family from before the foundation of the world, or we haven't. If we have, one day, at a time of God's choosing, we will know of our redemption by God's grace through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, and we will believe by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us new eyes and new ears and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind in order to "know the things of God."

If we haven't been named as one of His own, we won't care in the slightest. We will enjoy ourselves as natural men and women and die ignorant of our condemnation.

And each of our lives plays out according to God's plan. That is the greatest comfort for the Christian. Romans 8:28 is true. Thank God. It's all about mercy and not debt. Gratitude is the only proper perspective.

1,792 posted on 01/11/2010 12:48:53 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Mr Rogers

“joy of fathering a FReeper”

The jury is still out on that one. He is living with K and me now.


1,793 posted on 01/11/2010 12:51:56 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: Mad Dawg; boatbums; annalex
FK: One funny thing I've learned from my conversations with some Catholics is that to be called a heretic by them is actually the second best thing to be if one does not believe in Apostolic succession. :) That is, (and I invite Catholics to comment) I don't think they would call an LDS a heretic because they don't merit the level of heretic. :)

I don't think there's going to be a universally agreed upon taxonomy of deviations. Dante considers Mohamed a heretic - which probably reflects the thinking of his time (1300's). I would think LDSers would be heretics, just in a whole lot of different ways. I dunno though. We will use the word "heresy" for a line of thought or a doctrine, but a heresy can be held in error rather than stubbornly.

I suppose I was trying to confirm or not my understanding of Catholicism in that concerning heresy, it is presupposed that the heretic is at least a Christian. Almost no FR Catholics have ever accused me or my kind as not being Christians, albeit we are Christians in grievous error. :) Therefore, my kind would be heretics and the term "separated brothers" could be used because we are still Christians. My understanding was that Muslims, etc. could not be heretics or "separated brothers" because they are obviously not Christian at all.

1,794 posted on 01/11/2010 1:00:23 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Cronos

I must say I like your explanation a lot better, but the context of my comment was in response to another post. It doth complicated get. . . . .


1,795 posted on 01/11/2010 1:06:38 PM PST by esquirette (If we do not know our own worldview, we will accept theirs.)
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To: Cronos
Interesting, and what is your take on Islam and it’s statement that it has the newer gospel?

Yah'shua said it best:
Mark 12:29 Yah'shua answered, "The foremost is,
'HEAR, O ISRAEL! YHvH OUR ELOHIM IS ONE YHvH;
The Allah of Islam is not YHvH.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
1,796 posted on 01/11/2010 1:09:09 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"As for free will and predestination both being true, I find that an enormous and silly cop-out. Men are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, according to the will of God."

Terrific observation! We are still looking around the Bible for that evasive little beast called "free will". Was it last seen in II Hesitations?

1,797 posted on 01/11/2010 1:11:34 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Mad Dawg

The outrageous personal assaults I’ve receive in the last hours by FREEPMAIL

are incredible.

Some folks REALLY need to deal redemptively and thoroughly with their bitterness. They are begging for super crippling arthritis, if the research I’ve read is any clue. Very sad.

Blaming others doesn’t really work here.

And it won’t work facing God face to face, either.


1,798 posted on 01/11/2010 1:11:50 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mad Dawg
"Specifically they attackers will avoid distinguishing between prayer and worship and will avoid saying what they mean by prayer."

Yet everyone that has attacked the practices and beliefs of Cahtolics on FR has at one time or another asked that they or others be prayed for or have remembered others in their own prayers. They just can't comprehend the transition to asking the same thing of a saint.

1,799 posted on 01/11/2010 1:11:57 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved."

Do you deny that all are called to Salvation or that a plan for Salvation exists for all?

1,800 posted on 01/11/2010 1:14:04 PM PST by Natural Law
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