Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
LOL.
There is no therefore no condemnation is written to people who are alive - on this side of eternity - in the body. They are being told there is no condemnation for those who put their trust in Christ.
Amen! Why any church would want to deny this assurance to believers is a sad puzzle.
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36
What Christian believes things like that?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 120, states; "It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books."
Note that the Catholic Bible, which contains more writings than yours, is a more complete compendium.
I have too much to think about for one day, but while I happily pray the Rosary and 'send up' my little Marian 'dart' prayers, I don't have in my heart taking time off from being with IHS.
OK, and what I'm driving at is whether you (you all) share the exact same substance and specifics of your supplications to Mary that you do with God. I am asserting that sometimes, some Catholics would ask Mary (or another Saint) for certain things that would then not later be repeated in a prayer to God. Without claiming to know anyone's heart I can report from my own casual observations that many times a Catholic has told me that he/she has prayed to Mary concerning some specific thing, but I hear considerably less that the same Catholic has prayed directly to God about the same matter. So, that just makes me think ...... :)
Amen!
Write a book!!! A 70-year pastorate is an accomplishment few men have achieved (not to mention the joy of fathering a FReeper.)
“OK, and what I'm driving at is whether you (you all) share the exact same substance and specifics of your supplications to Mary that you do with God.”
Really good question!
A critical difference is that we offer the Sacrifice of the Mass only to God. For us, the Mass is true worship. The Mass is offered ONLY to God (although it may be offered on behalf of others, as a form of intercession).
Just talking to God, although that can be a part of worship, isn't sufficient as worship. Thus, talking to any saint, praying to the court for relief (that's what they say in the courts here in Maryland, that we “pray relief” of the court), whatever, just yacking with people, whether on earth or in Heaven, doesn't qualify, by itself, as worship.
But of course, for folks who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox, you don't accept what we believe about the Mass.
However, it would be nice if you did recognize that for us, the Mass, the Eucharist, is the source and summit of our faith, the keystone of our worship of the Most Holy Trinity.
sitetest
No, I'm not.
You cannot show us any Scripture that says we are to pray to anyone but God because there is no Scripture that says that.
OTC, Scripture says we are to pray to and make known our needs and fears and thoughts to God alone.
That is simple, but not "simplistic." And yet even still some RCs do not believe the words of God.
"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." -- Phil. 4:6
Of a Truth, I perceive that God the Father has revealed Himself in four different ways: 1) through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, 2) through the Holy Spirit who indwells us, 3) through Scripture and 4) through His Creation both spiritual and physical.
I perceive no conflicts at all in these revelations. But I'm sure that is due to my personal epistemology (how I know what I know and how certain I know that I actually know it.)
God's Name is I AM.
I think sitetest's going in a useful direction in that my commo with Mary or Dominic is really of a different kind from my a lot (not all) of my commo with God. Sooner or later, though I think I cover the same stuff, as far as specific requests go.
St. Anthony and the car keys: it's almost always that I ask Jesus first, then Anthony, and then thank 'em both.
But there's something "surrounding" about God that I don't think/feel about individual saints. I mean if I mean to be with God intentionally, I don't often make a lot of petitions. Generally it's more a matter of just being there. Yeah, I know that's inchoate. Sorry.
Since the bible wasn't written in English, but rather translated into English at a much later date, why don't you tell me which meanings you refer to.
My exchange with the_conscience is clarifying. There is no need perceived by their side to make sense, to use English, to talk about ideas and their consequences. In fact, their purposes are better served if meanings are obscured. If we have trouble understanding their points (on the tenuous assumption that they actually HAVE points) there is no burden on them to explain themselves. Our not understanding their inchoate notions is, in their eyes vindication. That's why one rarely sees anything but a vast barrage of quotes.
A few of them make arguments and show the relationships among the ideas they express. But that's unusual.
Different strokes, but some people, not having arguments, are not worth arguing with.
If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.
IIRC I sent you the brilliant work by Calvinist Baptist preacher, Arthur Pink, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. You should read it sometime, especially chapter five.
As for Calvinist Baptists, I'd estimate there are more Calvinist Baptists in these discussions on FR than Presbyterians.
As for free will and predestination both being true, I find that an enormous and silly cop-out. Men are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, according to the will of God.
All of life is determined by God, not men. We either have been named by God as one of His family from before the foundation of the world, or we haven't. If we have, one day, at a time of God's choosing, we will know of our redemption by God's grace through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, and we will believe by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us new eyes and new ears and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind in order to "know the things of God."
If we haven't been named as one of His own, we won't care in the slightest. We will enjoy ourselves as natural men and women and die ignorant of our condemnation.
And each of our lives plays out according to God's plan. That is the greatest comfort for the Christian. Romans 8:28 is true. Thank God. It's all about mercy and not debt. Gratitude is the only proper perspective.
“joy of fathering a FReeper”
The jury is still out on that one. He is living with K and me now.
I don't think there's going to be a universally agreed upon taxonomy of deviations. Dante considers Mohamed a heretic - which probably reflects the thinking of his time (1300's). I would think LDSers would be heretics, just in a whole lot of different ways. I dunno though. We will use the word "heresy" for a line of thought or a doctrine, but a heresy can be held in error rather than stubbornly.
I suppose I was trying to confirm or not my understanding of Catholicism in that concerning heresy, it is presupposed that the heretic is at least a Christian. Almost no FR Catholics have ever accused me or my kind as not being Christians, albeit we are Christians in grievous error. :) Therefore, my kind would be heretics and the term "separated brothers" could be used because we are still Christians. My understanding was that Muslims, etc. could not be heretics or "separated brothers" because they are obviously not Christian at all.
I must say I like your explanation a lot better, but the context of my comment was in response to another post. It doth complicated get. . . . .
Yah'shua said it best:
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Mark 12:29 Yah'shua answered, "The foremost is,
The Allah of Islam is not YHvH.
'HEAR, O ISRAEL! YHvH OUR ELOHIM IS ONE YHvH;
Terrific observation! We are still looking around the Bible for that evasive little beast called "free will". Was it last seen in II Hesitations?
The outrageous personal assaults I’ve receive in the last hours by FREEPMAIL
are incredible.
Some folks REALLY need to deal redemptively and thoroughly with their bitterness. They are begging for super crippling arthritis, if the research I’ve read is any clue. Very sad.
Blaming others doesn’t really work here.
And it won’t work facing God face to face, either.
Yet everyone that has attacked the practices and beliefs of Cahtolics on FR has at one time or another asked that they or others be prayed for or have remembered others in their own prayers. They just can't comprehend the transition to asking the same thing of a saint.
Do you deny that all are called to Salvation or that a plan for Salvation exists for all?
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