Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Petronski]

The Church is infallible because the Scripture says so, and the proof of the Scripture being correct is that the Church is the final interpreter thereof.

Which Catholic posted that?

[Mad Dawg]

I'm enjoying your comments. Thanks.

In our bizarre papist cult in which we can, I am told, understand no subtleties and, have other faults which I didn't quite get,but whatever ....

Both Dominic Guzman and Therese of Lisieux (I'm always amazed when I can type that) said, as they died, that they would be able to do more for those who loved them AFTER they died than before.

Leaving aside the problem with the intercession of the saints, clearly both these folks were pretty persuaded that they were going to heaven.

I mention this to say that in at least in these instances "assurance" is not denied or pooh-poohed by us.

One response said that we would not know if our works were sufficient for salvation until after death. My response to that was that Paul’s words in Romans 8 would be without meaning.

I have a problem with the idea of my works being "sufficient for salvation". I prepared to put good money on my works being grossly insufficient, QUA my works.

The works God does in me though ... I dunno.

I think in this way: rather than as a proposition for general consideration, I would say to myself when I was being assailed "Turn to Jesus, NOW you big DOPE! There is no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus, so get your butt in gear!"

I dunno, rambling here. Let me watch some more later today.

Thanks again for your thoughtfulnessitude.

[Quix]

ohhhh . . . uhhhh . . .

for limbering up arthritic fingers?

. . . . methane expulsion through the fingers?

. . . . uhhhh . . .

watching the other side dance and swirl in a confused choreography? . . .

I give up, you tell me.

[Quix]

Thanks.

I’m honored, in a manner of speaking.

Works for me.

[Quix]

I checked back.

That post was written mostly for the edification of the gallery anyway.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Dr.E: We are commanded to pray for our fellow man...

PETRONSKI: And the Saints in Heaven are happy to oblige.

lol. So RCs do believe dead people now in heaven answer their prayers. Thanks for the candor.

Another instance of the papacy teaching anti-Scriptural errors.

[esquirette]

Enjoying yours as well, which brought a smile.

[Cvengr]

Some apparently don’t read nor respond to your posts, so they must be reactively, rabidly, cutting and pasting quotes from them to be able to reply as they do....;^)

[esquirette]

oops.

[Petronski]

So RCs do believe dead people now in heaven answer their prayers.

Perhaps Raving Calvinists believe that, I don't know, but I not an RC.

[Petronski]

Another instance of the papacy teaching anti-Scriptural errors.

The Papacy does not teach what you wrote, nor does it teach any anti-Scriptural errors.

[Petronski]

Euh.

Should have typed "...but I'm not an RC."

[Cronos]

The conclusion can only be that there can be no assurance of salvation in this life.

That's not correct. We are assured of salvation by Christ's sacrifice, we don't worry if we've "done enough", because we keep doing positive actions under God's grace.

To put Church beliefs succintly:

Jesus alone has saved us. Jesus has saved us by his life, suffering, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. None of us earns salvation. Redemption is a gift from God. Good works flow from the grace of God which abides within us. Good works flow from our cooperation with grace Works demonstrate the grace of God within us. Grace empowers us to be good and to do good. All the good works in the course of our lives, however, cannot earn us salvation.

five hundred years ago, and now, no Catholic authority would say that "by good works we can work our way into heaven." We don't earn salvation; God has gifted us with salvation

Also, Lutherans do not say that "good works are not necessary as part of the Christian life." In fact, as per the Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification of 1999, both Catholic and Lutherans agreed on a common position regarding justification.

The Council of Trent states: "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace' [Rom. 11:6]"

We receive initial justification purely by the grace of God, not by any deeds or merits of our own.

And Paul talks about us not boasting of our precedence (like the Pharisees) but saying that "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). God has raised up both of us-Jews and Gentiles-to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for we received initial salvation as a gift. We obtained it by faith in Christ (which itself is a gift from God), not by works of obedience to the Mosaic Law. So neither Jew or Gentile can boast over the other of having privilege with God

Remember that the only instance of the phrase sola fide is in James 2:24 where sola fide is rejected.

The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit

So, in conclusion, we have assurance of salvation due to Christ and we do positive actions under the impetus of God's grace

[Cronos]

Heg: You'll have a much easier time convincing people you can interpret the intricacies of scripture once you convince them you can handle the "subtleties" of the dictionary.

t_c: I keep forgetting that Romanists are unable to interpret “subtleties” of context. I suppose that’s why they always need to refer back to Rome to understand Scripture

Non-sequitur. HD pointed out that you would need to handle the "subtleties" of the dictionary since there was singular lack of that in your previous post and you turn that on him that he is unable to interpret subtleties?

[Cronos]

MD: I am totally at sea. Quotation marks around “correct” make “irregardless” a word in the English language?

t_c:I can see you’re at sea. Not in the Roman handbook?

Why t_c, now you ascribe the English dictionary to the Romans? Or to The Church?

[Cronos]

‘call no man father’ into ‘call no priest Father’

What's really daft is that that is English language usage -- in Polish, they don't call priests Tatus!

[Cronos]

toc: Romanism gets caught up in definitions and misses the context. Romanism treats the arts as science. Romanism treats form as meaning.

Pet Terrible thing, that Romanism. Thank God I'm a Catholic, not a Romanist.

Maybe t_c is referring to Romanticism in poetry? But he's got it wrong -- Romanticism like Shelley etc. is the exact opposite of what he's defining. Do you dislike Shelley, t_C?

[Hegewisch Dupa]

!!!!!! That is a great point! Next piwo is on me....

[esquirette]

esquirette: If that is true, how do we know when our works are complete to assure salvation?

Petronski: When you pass from this life to the next.

CCC 1949 Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. —Phil 2:12-13.

[boatbums]

Not the rock-n-roll concert kind, definitely!!! I agree, but I’m an old f**t.