Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[markomalley]

Don’t forget that the Bible didn’t even exist before 1611 when King James finished writing it is perfect Elizabethan English.

Well, hey, if Elizabethan English was good enough for Jesus and Paul...who am I to question its originality?

[IrishCatholic]

Well, if “have the balls to come out and say it” is potty language, I stand corrected. The phrase is in the common usage now and not strictly an anatomical reference. It is used to denote courage, forthrightness, and usually used in the male sense of having honor usage. I will attempt to be more careful in my colloquialisms in the future.

As for the other point- Thick skin is for “Romanist” or “Papist” and thin skin is for “He who must be named.”

Got it.

[the_conscience]

You may call it hogwash, but the doctrine you spouted as your own was pure Romanist

Pure Romanist? Now there's an oxymoron. You've proven nothing.

[Poe White Trash]

Me:

The Eucumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is not some Orthodox counterpart of the Bishop of Rome in either assumed authority or power, and the schism that started in 1054 is still in place."

You:

You are absolutely correct, Has someone told you otherwise?

Me:

To be honest, some on this forum have implied otherwise during their attempt to argue that East and West were not in schism.

As far as I can tell, there are at least two, "Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic" Churches. Maybe the monophysites make three.

You:

You are wrong. There is only one.

Let me re-phrase: As far as I can tell, there are at least two groups who claim to be the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic" Church. Maybe the monophysites make three such claimants.

You're right: there can be only one. But there are at least two, and probably more, claimants.

Schism, in and of itself, is not uncommon and does not mean that the schismatics are heretics. There was a schism between Moscow and Constantinople a few years ago.

The schism between East and West has lasted for over 1,000 years, hardly comparable to what happened between Moscow and Constaninople a few years ago.

Is the Church of Rome in communion with the several Patriarchates of the "Orthodox Church"? Yes or no?

[GCC Catholic]

I'm asking that the Caucus tags reflect a particular Church more precisely. Since I'm Catholic I find it confusing that the Church of Rome is able to use that term that I identify with as their own.

The Catholic Church (termed by you the "Church of Rome") refers to itself as "the Catholic Church" and refers to its members (members proper) as Catholics or as Catholic Christians.

From my point of view, there is no term other than "Catholic" with which the Catholics on the forum may call ourselves that is concise, accurate, and nonoffensive.

Certainly the bizarre terms of "Vatican Agent" and "Papal Submissive" as well as the clearly offensive terms of "Papist" and "Romanist" are out.

"Roman Catholic" is out because it isn't accurate - there are Eastern-Rite Catholics who are Catholic but not "Roman".

Similarly, the Orthodox shouldn't be reduced to referring to themselves as "Eastern Orthodox," as there are Orthodox who are not Eastern-Rite per se.

Of course, all of this is assuming that "catholic" and "orthodox" are simple adjectives, and don't mean the same as their capitalized counterparts.

I'm sorry that the term that Catholics (i.e. those in communion with the Pope) use to precisely reflect our Church is confusing to you. I explained the capital 'C' / lower-case 'c' manner of understanding it - that is the way that most people keep the two straight and in the world outside of FR seems to work pretty well. Beyond that, I really can't help you.

[kosta50]

Dominus Iesus makes it very clear that the Orthodox Church is true Church but lacks fullness of communion with Rome.

""Consequently the Council elaborated the Doctrine of degrees of communion, the one by which, with the language of the Council, it affirms on the one hand the presence of the Church in fullness in the Catholic Church and it recognizes the notion of Church for example with regard to the Orthodox Eastern Churches, which have kept the ordained ministry and the Eucharist...On the other hand the fact of speaking of degrees of communion, of recognizing Eastern Churches with the full status of Churches" [Dominus Iesus]

It is therefore really risque, especially with regard to the effort of the present Pope, to try to keep the Orthodox out of Catholic Caucuses even if Catholic does mean only those Christians in communion with Rome, as it would be risque at this point, and contrary to the spirit of Orthodoxy, to exclude Christians in communion with Rome from Orthodox caucuses. We are not in communion but we are in the same House of God, same one Holy Cathoic and Aposotlic Church, offeirng the same valid Eucharist and sharing the same apostolic authority.

The Vatican would be highly dipsleased to learn that the Orthodox are exlcusded on FR while they are included in Rome. It owuld mean that the Cathoic laity and Catholic hierarchy are at odds.

[the_conscience]

From my point of view, there is no term other than "Catholic" with which the Catholics on the forum may call ourselves that is concise, accurate, and nonoffensive.

How about: Churches associated with the Roman Bishop?

I explained the capital 'C' / lower-case 'c' manner of understanding it

And I posted a known definition in which the proper name Catholic includes individuals like myself.

[Religion Moderator]

From my post 13:

For the purpose of moderating caucuses on the Religion Forum, members of the "Catholic Caucus" are those who accept Papal Authority.

If the Catholic Caucus is to include Orthodox, it should be labeled "Catholic/Orthodox Caucus."

If the caucus is for those who believe in Christ as God, i.e. the Trinity, it should be labeled "Christian Caucus."

Many other designations may be used to limit the caucus to those who share a certain belief, e.g. Dispensationalist, LDS, Baptist.

I will be monitoring this thread to see if these meanings are adequate to avoid disruptions on Religion Forum caucuses.

Caucus threads are treated as if they are occuring behind the closed doors of a church. Members of a church may discuss internal disagreements but an outsider will not be allowed to disrupt the assembly to air his disagreements.

I see no reason from the arguments posted on this thread to alter the above meanings. As always, a caucus such as the "Catholic Caucus" may invite some who are not strictly members of their caucus by the above meanings to attend their closed door discussion. But if I receive a complaint from a well-established caucus member that a non-caucus member has disrupted the thread, I will use the above strict meanings to decide whether or not to instruct the disrupter to leave the thread.

The balance of this discussion is academic or theological in my view and has no bearing on moderating the Religion Forum.

[wmfights]

Thank you Brother!

[Petronski]

The Catholic Church has been the Catholic Church for centuries. Your attempt to expropriate the term will necessarily fail.

[Kolokotronis]

"The Vatican would be highly dipsleased to learn that the Orthodox are exlcusded on FR while they are included in Rome. It owuld mean that the Cathoic laity and Catholic hierarchy are at odds...."

[Petronski]

And I posted a known definition in which the proper name Catholic includes individuals like myself.

Welcome aboard. You won't even need to pay for a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's available free online.

[Kolokotronis]

"The Vatican would be highly dipsleased to learn that the Orthodox are exlcusded on FR while they are included in Rome. It owuld mean that the Cathoic laity and Catholic hierarchy are at odds"

Particularly ironic since the original complainant doubtless is one of those who accuse others of being CINOs while at the same time stomping on the Pope's program.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You missed my point. My comment about calling only Protestants "Christian" was facetious which Salvation has shown she understood.

But Roman Catholics are completely serious when they demand exclusive rights to the word "catholic."

[the_conscience]

I see no reason from the arguments posted on this thread to alter the above meanings.

So the dictionary definition that those who profess faith in Christ as Catholic does not create a reason to look at the tag because it includes those outside those churches associated with Rome?

[wagglebee]

Thank you and I agree.

[GCC Catholic]

It is therefore really risque, especially with regard to the effort of the present Pope, to try to keep the Orthodox out of Catholic Caucuses even if Catholic does mean only those Christians in communion with Rome, as it would be risque at this point, and contrary to the spirit of Orthodoxy, to exclude Christians in communion with Rome from Orthodox caucuses. We are not in communion but we are in the same House of God, same one Holy Cathoic and Aposotlic Church, offeirng the same valid Eucharist and sharing the same apostolic authority.

Generally, when Catholics visit Orthodox Churches or vice-versa, they can sit, be behaved, and participate in intelligent and fruitful discussion. Given that the Caucus threads are discussions within the virtual closed doors of a virtual church, it would seem to hardly make sense to restrict one from the other unless there is antagonism.

That said, the Caucus thread designation seems to not be so much about who is in communion with whom, but rather about keeping order.

Perhaps we need to start creating more threads as [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]. Alternately, it might make sense to designate some threads as [Catholic Caucus; Orthodox invited] and [Orthodox Caucus; Catholics invited] (i.e. "visitors stopping by fully welcome in the others' virtual church") - by giving a blanket invitation, it becomes more than a pure Caucus, but less than an Ecumenic thread.

[Petronski]

Demand exclusive rights?

More like objecting to the Orwellian destruction of words.

The Catholic Church is the Universal Church founded by Christ circa AD 33.

[Petronski]

So the dictionary definition...

You cut off the Merriam-Webster definition. Why don't you post the whole thing?

[Religion Moderator]

The labeling of a caucus on the Religion Forum does not need to comply with dictionary definitions. "Non-denominational" for instance is a caucus that includes Independent Baptists.

If a newbie wanders in unaware of the terms we use for labeling caucuses, he will no doubt be informed by the members and/or by me what the terms mean here on the RF.