Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Do Presbyterians believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, a kind of spiritual circumcision?
As the Westminster Confession of Faith regarding baptism states...
V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]
I have happily worshiped in Baptist churches and I often read and listen to Baptist sermons on-line. John Piper is terrific. And Charles Spurgeon had few equals.
(raises hand)Most of the time these threads go round in circles.To my shame I often end up 'baracking' for one 'side' over the other.
If these times trully are the end times then it pretty much follows that all this division (whatever the degree) will soon vaporise.You will either be a christian or you will not.
May God trully bless us and keep us all.
Maybe because they are taught they should ask Mary to Pray for them at an early age and thereafter reinforced by the church in thier doctrines, I would guess
I’d much rather a live person pray for me and or with me as it’s then two way communication... Better yet, when I struggle to find the words of my heart and mind Gods Holy Spirit actively does so on my behalf...with words which are assuredly perfect.... You know there are times all we can do is a sigh...and be before Him....There is something quite wonderful about just Being before Him. “Be still and KNOW that I am God”...I like the KNOW part best.
You asked if God said to construct and kneel to an image in prayer. WE gave you the example of the serpent. Do you deny that as God telling His people to create a graven image?
Were you taught these things by those of the Extreme Charismatic Church you spent so many years with, or the Methodist Church you attended thereafter.
Just wondering because from your page it’s very clear that the Charismatic Church did a great deal of damage to you and others, they certainly more than twisted the truth.
BTW.. Very glad you finally got away from them, hopefully others did as well. Understandable why you would then seek God again in the Catholic church, after about 30 yrs with the other.
So, if you’ve worshipped in Baptist Churchs, what about their injunct AGAINST infant baptism. What is the OPC/Machen verdict on that?
Neither Baptists nor Presbyterians nor Lutherans nor Methodists nor Anglicans nor Congregationalists pray to statues of dead people nor believe Mary is a "co-redeemer" nor refer to their pastors as "another Christ," all anti-Scriptural errors of Rome.
As I said, our differences are small compared to the enormous, anti-Scriptural errors of the papacy.
“Oh, the curtain example is not my own” you said...
Uh??????.... Of course it’s not your why did you feel you needed to say that?
Well, then you are making up your own meaning of ontology. It wouldn't be the first corruption of Greek by the west, for sure.
The Catholic Church teaches that the true Church, the fullness of the Church, subsists in the Catholic Church, and that the Catholic Church is ontologically the one Church, complete and lacking nothing.
That's what the Orthodox Church teaches too.
We do not believe that this is the case with the Orthodox Churches. We believe that they are in schism from the true Church.
I am aware of that. However, I do not see why. What is lacking in the Eastern Church that is not lacking in the Western?
The Polish National Catholic Church is an apostolic Church in the United States that has, as far as I know, continuing apostolic succession, validity of holy orders and sacraments, etc. They are in schism from the Catholic Church
Why?
Regarding baptism, I have heard of some Orthodox re-baptising Catholics. Others don't. Thus, it appears to vary from one group to another what is considered a “valid” baptism.
Sure. Those Catholics who cannot provide proof of baptism or whose baptism did not conform to the baptismal formula practiced by the Church in the first millennium have to be baptized. There is only one "valid" baptism.
Needless to say, the Catholic Church believes that all Her baptisms are valid. And we believe that all Orthodox baptisms are also valid. I have never, ever heard of any Orthodox ever being [re-]baptised when received into full communion in the Catholic Church.
I would love to hear the excuse for such a belief, since it is not what the Cathodic church practiced in the first millennium.
As well, we Catholics seem to be somewhat more uniform in determining validity than the Orthodox.
LOL! There is but one way to baptize and that was determined and practiced by the Catholic Church before Frankish innovations introduced a different "tradition."
If the attitudes of hostility and exclusion, of condescension and contempt were limited to a single Orthodox poster, I would credit what you say. But they are not.
There is no hostility or exclusion, condescension and contempt by the Orthodox as a whole.
It was YOU who excoriated CATHOLICS for our failure to counter the heresies of folks like Ms. Pelosi as reason why the ORTHODOX might not want to accomplish reunion with the CATHOLICS.
The likes of Sarbanes were unknown to me. This is the first time I hear about them. I am not Greek. Besides, while the Orthodox Church does oppose abortion on moral grounds, it does not make it her top dogmatic issue. Rather it treats abortion as any other murder. Supporting murder is not the same as committing it. The commandment does not say you are guilty of supporting such a thing but actually doing it. It is the "other lung" that makes it a top dogmatic issue and then does not act accordingly.
But as we can see from your own admissions, many of the Orthodox hierarchy are as guilty, and perhaps more guilty than the Catholic hierarchy in this regard
Not really, given the scope of the issue as seen in the Eastern Church. Supporters of abortion are on thin moral ice, but are not in contempt of the "magisterium" (which does not exist in the Eastern tradition).
Perhaps we CATHOLICS should be wary of you latitudinarian ORTHODOX when thinking about reunion (my tongue is at least partly in my cheek).
On issues of dogma (Holy Trinity, Christology, Mariology) the Church in the East is never latitudinarian. The Orthodox Church simply does not raise abortion to the same level but treats is as any other sin, be it adultery, lying, stealing, etc. that one actually commits. To the best of my knowledge none of the Sarbanes or Olympia Snowe are guilty of murder. Nevertheless, I think it shameful for honoring Orthodox politicians supporting abortion for no reason other than ethnic chauvinism.
It is the western hierarchs in general who raise abortion to the level of top dogma (which may itself be a heresy), and yet meet it in a latitudinarian fashion. So, seeing the difference, I would imagine it prudent for them to think very hard about the problems associated with any reunion at this point. The inconsistency is entirely theirs.
Although we are close, we aren't one.
We are both in the same holy, catholic and apostolic Church whose authority is derived from apostolic succession, whose clergy are valid by the same and whose sacraments are true for the same reason. That's what makes our Church what it is. You are no more Catholic than the Orthodox in that regard as all members, hierarchs, clergy and sacraments of the true Church are ontologically indistinguishable.
We are not one when it comes to theology and ecclesiologiy. That is not an ontological division. We are divided in our communion, not because your communion is invalid but because communion is an expression of union and not a means of achieving one.
Actually, the first Christians were Jews.
That's the point you keep ignoring.
Somehow the RCC thinks God contradicts Himself. He doesn't. He told men not to make graven images that they fall down and pray to. RCs are free to disregard His instructions. It seems to be habitual.
Absolutely first Christians were Jewish...and so was Christ.
Just to direct you to the ones who did first point it out (the Early Church Fathers)
Hypocritical.
And I don't waste time discussing theonomy with someone who clearly doesn't know the difference between theonomy and theocracy.
I don't understand your fascination with Machen. He's seldom quoted here. The RCs seem to be the only ones even mentioning him.
Machen was a conservative Presbyterian pastor who taught at Princeton Seminary and guided the formation of the conservative branch of Presbyterianism, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
If you're so interested in him, read some of what he had to say. It can only do you good.
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