I gather you thought that strategy was
the exclusive turf of . . . oh who could it be . . .
Petronski et al?
Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
I honestly believe, Bro,
that there is something crucially important
THEOLOGICALLY, FUNCTIONALLY
important
about the EXCLUSIVITY OF GOD’S GLORY
AND OF GOD AS THE SOURCE AND FOCUS OF OUR PRAYERS.
I see it as tied up in the Nature of God and in how
HE WISHES TO BE SEEN BY HIS KIDS.
I see that as crucially vital.
And if that’s missed, for whatever reason, something vital, spiritually, is missed.
I’m not trying to say that it dooms anyone . . . but something highly important qualitatively is missed.
It may well be that God has a stronger negative view of such errant practices than I think He might. I don’t know. I just know that something vital is missing when that is missed.
Is that a good summary of where we are?
You know, quit whining and defend your theology biblically. NoGrayzone has asked, quite nicely, for biblical verses on why you pray to everyone but God. Rather than admit that there is none, you cast around for anything whether in context or not, it doesn’t seem to matter, and when asked about it, you start playing the victim.
###
IT’S FR !!!!TRADITION!!!! from the earliest days.
We only have the body of the Church because Christ gave up His physical body. So the two things are related, and it is natural for anyone talking of the Church as a metaphorical body of Christ also refer to His physical body. The reference in 1 Cor. 11 is such reference, it is manifestly a reference to His physical body because the Church, his metaphorical body, did not die on the Cross.
You are attempting to obfuscate the Scripture.
And I never said that it DID contain any exhortations. However it does contain many incidents of humans communicating with angels. So I communicate with angels,knowing there is precedent in Scripture.
Indeed.
Such things, I thought, were obvious.
But I thought “It’s good to be King!”
And you can take it...think of it as a compliment!
However, notice this: “And since I perceive that through Mary’s intercession Jesus has given great blessings to me, I am going to indulge in words of gratitude and affection toward her as well as toward Jesus.”
There you have another difference. When others join me in prayer at a prayer service, and God grants what we prayed for, we...praise God. None of us turns to the other and says, “Since it was through your intercession that Jesus has given great blessings to me, Let me indulge in words of gratitude and affection toward you as well as toward Jesus”.
At Baptist prayer meetings, we thank God - not each other.
Thanking Mary suggests it was her effectiveness in convincing God to do something that resulted in a favorable response, rather than God’s love and mercy and justice.
I have never and will never go to my Pastor and say, “George, I know you were praying for me, and I want to thank you - without your intercession on my behalf, who knows what would have happened?”
True. true.
And Indeed on all counts.
“Scripture does NOT contain ANY exhortation to pray to angels either”
Of course it does.
Tobit 12:1, “The angel Raphael says: ‘I offered thy prayer to the Lord.’”
I know that Protestants look at the use of the word "pray" differently. For most of them I think it's because their thinking about the Incarnation and the new order wrought by Christ's sacrifice is deficient. I have friends. Some have died, others haven't. I am in communion with them, many members of one body, not a single part of which is 'dead'..
You know when, and if, the people you have summoned participate I will have to leave. Some of them are vicious liars filled with hatred and slander. But even if that were not so, I can't possibly address all the topics and arguments they will raise.
It makes me think this is not a discussion but a rumble pretending to be a discussion.
Plenty true.
“You are attempting to obfuscate the Scripture.”
No. I am placing the verses in their context - SEVEN CHAPTERS OF CONTEXT - and showing that verse 11:24 was not defining verse 11:29.
It is bad hermeneutics to ignore the preceding 3 chapters and the following 3 chapters in defining what a term refers to in the center chapter.
Why does the context of 7 consecutive chapters disturb you?
Tobit isn’t scripture.
Sorry, I didn't realize you and all other FReepers on this board were nothing but "electronics and keyboards"....my boo.
I gather you thought that strategy was
the exclusive turf of . . . oh who could it be . . .
Petronski et al?
You have more patience than I. I have stopped responding to Quix. He is incapable of staying on topic or articulating a cogent argument, even if you can decipher his Cat in the Hat, Green Eggs and Ham style.
INDEED.
AND VERY TELLING.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks . . . and prays.
EXCELLENT POINTS.
No doubt Mary was the chosen mother of Christ. That she would feel the pain of heart as a mother would at his death...and the joy later that He lives.
Later on Mary died, she’s gone, not here... As goes the way of all mankind. Timothy was ALIVE and present when instructed to pray for others. Our friends we pray with are ALIVE and present. That does make an astounding difference.
Jesus is ever present, ever hearing, so why go to someone who has died? If indeed He is the only way to the Father as He has said, then what purpose would there be to go thru someone dead. Mary is not at the right hand of the Father, Christ is.
Furthermore the scripture is clear that when we struggle in prayer we have the assurance that the Spirit of God is intereceding for us directly...it doesn’t go any higher than that. There are three in the Trinity and Mary is not one of them.
It’s quite one thing, if God agrees with you . . .
and something quite different, if He does not.
Look. I asked for Scripture saying it was okay to discuss theology etc on the Internet. Haven't received ONE VERSE showing it's okay to discuss theology ON THE INTERNET. Not one.
YOU brought up a verse about confessin Christ. Even though the translation was dishonest, it's a fine verse. But, as I said, it doesn't mention the internet, electornics, keyboards, all that.
So we would think about the verse. We would wonder what sort of differenc electronics made. But the VERSE did NOT say it.
So I would be dishonest, wouldn't I., to go around saying I asked and I got NOT ONE VERSE, NOT good enough!
Clearly, UNLESS you are not really asking a question, CLEARLY the answer to your question will not be, can not be one or even two or three verses.
JUST as clearly there may be an answer if we take a number of verse AND their implications and think about them. Maybe there will be room in that process to develop a concept of the intercession of the saints.
But in the meantime, If all you do is say, I asked and they dodn't show me a verse, then all I will say in reply is, I asked and you didn't show me permission to discuss this online.
Get it?
This isn't high school debate club. This is people who love Jesus trying to discuss and to discern the things of God. If you are interested in victory, God will give it to you, but it won't be what you want. If you are interested in the victory of the Truth, the Son of God, then, with good will because we share the same goal, let us proceed. But let us do so as men and brothers and not as high school twits.
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