Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
When I pray, I am also worshiping.
Well, if you only pray to someone deserving divine honors and worship, that would be appropriate.
In our usage, which is admittedly equivocal, "pray" has several meanings and shades of meaning. The most basic is "request." I can certainly make a request of someone, even of someone you think to be dead, without worshipping (in the divine sense) him. Ditto for "converse" or even "commune".
Now I hear the mocking howls in the background, but mockery is not argument. The technical term for the attitude with which Catholics approach or regard Mary is "hyperdulia" as distinct from "latria". English usage is so varied that one will always be able to find an exception to any forced rigor of usage of "worship" and "venerate", but while we do have a "hyper respect" for Mary most of us know what the Church teaches and do not think of Mary as Divine.
Most Catholics are not as fearful as some Protestants and we trust that God understands what some Protestants will not allow, namely: that one can kneel in front of a statue or painting and not be committing "latria."
So, they disagree. I can live with that.
So, you can pray to the "god of the sun" but yet not worship it?
I wouldn't pray to a "god of the sun," because I don't believe one exists.
Why on earth would you pray to someone whom you do not worship?
For the many of the same reasons I would communicate with any personal entity, but mostly to ask for prayers.
When I was a child, I was peeved that once I got to heaven, I'd have to cast my crown at God's feet. But it's my crown! I wailed, I want to keep it!
And I'm fully sure if I had died as a little child He'd give me one, lol
But there comes a time when just as physically we have to grow up, so do we have to, spiritually
And praying to someone is not the same as worshiping them. Whats your point?
latria....I had NO idea what that word meant, so I looked it up. This is what I found in the Catholic encyclopedia...."Latria (latreia) in classical Greek originally meant "the state of a hired servant" (Aesch., "Prom.", 966), and so service generally. It is used especially for Divine service (Plato, "Apol.", 23 B). In Christian literature it came to have a technical sense for the supreme honour due to His servants, the angels and saints. This latter was styled "dulia". Etymologically, however, there is no reason why latria should be preferred to designate supreme honour; and indeed the two words were often used indiscriminately. The distinction is due to St. Augustine, who says: "Latria . . . ea dicitur servitus quae pertinet ad colendum Deum" (City of God X.1). (See ADORATION; WORSHIP.).... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09036a.htm
""the state of a hired servant".....I would take this as God's servant....not yours. Certainly not one to be prayed to.
Goes back to my original question....why on earth would you pray TO someone and not worship them?
Your limited understanding of the language and concepts here prohibit an intelligent discussion. When you understand the meaning and difference between the words prayer, worship, intercede, saint, and God get back to me.
As to God sharing His Glory, I suggest Luke 2:9
As to prayers being addressed to ones other than God, Acts 8:34.
This kind of thing is silly, but you asked.
Because you do not know or acknowledge the difference between prayer and worship you wouldn't understand.
Fine....let's say I'm as dumb as the rocks. Please tell me the Bible verse and or versus that state we can pray to Mary and the Saints.
His angel was declaring good news of a great joy. Doesn't mean they should have bowed to worship or pray to the angel.
"As to prayers being addressed to ones other than God, Acts 8:34"
Ahhh, you left out the beginning AND the end...one must start at Acts 9:26 and end at 35.....
Also....where in Acts 9 does the Bible state the paralyzed man prayed to Peter?
When all one can offer is rationalizations,
extrapolations,
interpretations,
fantasies,
Doctrines of men and worse,
. . .
then that’s all one can offer!
Has nothing to do "with God sharing His Glory". The light accompanied the angel
And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid
Well, I sure as heck would NOT pray to One I didn't worship!!!
Acts 8:34.?
Well, who knows who is reading this “saga”. Perhaps someone, even 1 person, who is unsure, rips out their Bible, and learns for themself, the truth....it is ALL worth it!
So latreia a few hundred years before Christ meant "service" as one might refer to a slave or a servant in Edwardian England as being "in service."
Then, as your reference shows, both latria and dulia came to refer to "religious" services, and there is nothing in the history (etymology) if the words themselves to make some kind of ordered distinction. So Augustine proposes that "latria be used for thee kind of "service" directed to God and "dulia" for other "service."
If you're going to bandy words, bandy 'em right. This is NOT the first time some Protestant has questioned our practices. I did not know that Augustine first proposed the technical distinction, but I had already made it for you.
""the state of a hired servant".....I would take this as God's servant....not yours. Certainly not one to be prayed to.
Who ever said anything about anybodys being MY servant? Or anything to deny that Mary is God's servant? And as for not praying, okay, from now on I'm frebbuxing (or whatever made up word I invented.)
Luke 2:9
has to do with . . . God's Glory . . . on a being by virtue of the being
residing, working, being in THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD'S GLORY.
I think that's the most likely explanation for 2:9.
It certainly has nothing to do with that being deciding to acquire some of God's Glory on his own . . . nor of that being's co-horts deciding to steal some of God's Glory in the death of night and throw it on their buddy.
BLESSED AND GLORIFIED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
madr up words for made up theology
made
Yeah. In the KJV the Ethiopian eunuch says to Philip, “I pray thee.”
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