Posted on 01/03/2010 10:30:30 PM PST by Gamecock
I'm asking Gamecock to provide scriptural warrant for the properties that the WC ascribes to it.
I'm not sure that I would agree. Each order has rules and regulations. And I never even went into the Latin Church, the Greek Church, etc. which all have widely different procedures. Certainly the Greek and the Latin Churches feel they are together (somewhat), yet the Greeks no way accept the rule of the Pope. We could go on and on about various Catholic Churches who have pagan rituals or openly flaunt the directives of the Church on things like abortion. It is disingenuious for Catholics to suggest that they are "one big happy family" and are not like Protestants at all. In truth, there are just as many divisions within the Catholic Church as there probably are with Protestants.
A lot of women's orders have gotten a little hinkie in the years since VatII and currently they are being, as it were, audited. There's significant mitching and boaning, and the chances are that there will be some defections when it all shakes out. But they are not formally denying access to the people from the Pope.
Dominicans may FEEL they are better than other orders, or than secular clergy, but they don't THINK that they are in principle.
I don't know about "happy family." I do know that there is not some supreme Baptist or Presbyterian Body to which all Baptists or Presbyterians think they owe some kind of obedience. But Dominicans, Jesuits, Franciscans, Carmelites, Benedictines, and the gazillions of other little groups know that they need Papal recognition for their official corporate existence and that they are accountable to the Pope.
When there are disagreements, either with orders or with individual pastors - one in DC a decade or two ago and one currently in Oz -- first their bishops come down on them. It's usually slow, patient, gradual, even reluctant. But sooner or later the Bishop will say, "I have title to that building and property, you have 30 days to vacate the premises." And if 'vacation' doesn't happen, then there is some shilly-shallying around, but finally the law will be called to enforce the bishop's property rights.
So with orders. Right now there is a group of lay people wearing Dominican habits as though this were say, the 15th century, and following some version of the Dominican Rule and directories. But the various Dominican muckety mucks not only have NOT acknowledged them as Dominicans, but have let the rest of us know that they are NOT acknowledged. So our involvement is ended.
They can wear what they like and if they get a priest to give them the sacraments, they can receive the sacraments. We think they're weird, they probably think we're unbearably liberal, but life goes on.
But this is why orders in the Catholic Church are not, that I can see, very like Denominations which call themselves, say, Presbyterian. ALL the orders, at least theoretically, as part of their responsibility to God, are also responsible to someone with a Post Office address. And the seculars, going up the chain of subsidiarity, are answerable to the same PO.
But NOT all those who call themselves Baptist are responsible to someone at some address somewhere, someone to whom SBC and Jimmy Carter's outfit and them Yankee Babdisds and all of em all answer to.
So I'm arguing it's different.
I would say the authority of the Holy Scripture comes from the very fact that they are "inspired" by God, wouldn't you? After all, that is what our early church fathers stated who made the distinction of inspired and uninspired writings. No other writings in church history is so distinguished. You may say that the Church is confirming the writings, but the fact is the early church father distinguish the writings as different-as inspired by God. Therefore they are different and carries the weight of the authority from God Himself.
The question I ask Catholics, and have yet to receive an answer, is how is any other Church writing on the same level as the Bible?
The question I ask Catholics, and have yet to receive an answer, is how is any other Church writing on the same level as the Bible?LOL, another funny guy. See Inspiration of the Bible
History alone allows us to establish the fact that Jews and Christians have always believed in the inspiration of the Bible. But what is this belief worth? Proofs of the rational as well as of the dogmatic order unite in justifying it. Those who first recognized in the Bible a superhuman work had as foundation of their opinion the testimony of the Prophets, of Christ, and of the Apostles, whose Divine mission was sufficiently established by immediate experience or by history. To this purely rational argument can be added the authentic teaching of the Church. A Catholic may claim this additional certitude without falling into a vicious circle, because the infallibility of the Church in its teaching is proved independently of the inspiration of Scripture; the historical value, belonging to Scripture in common with every other authentic and truthful writing, is enough to prove this.If you actually had asked many of us, you would have been given the arguments in the linked article. Hopefully you take the time to read and understand them.
I know a very Orthodox Catholic married to a very Orthodox Presbyterian. I’m impressed on how they make it work. They go to Mass on Sunday and service on Sunday. They work together on different committees (the one supporting the other) at their respective Churches.
Well, there you have it. It's just like the Catholic definition of atonement (which was modified over time as well). So now the Bible is just "common" with every other "truthful" writing? Man can be just as inspired as God. What utter blasphemy.
I'm sure Augustine, Justin, Clement and others thought their writings were truthful but they would not have said their writing rise to the same level as the scriptures. That is evidence because they simply didn't include them in the Bible.
The fact is that Catholics no longer believe in the inspiration of the Bible but see it simply as another "truthful" document. This definition proves that. Under this view Catholicism isn't any different than the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses who have other material to support their "religion"?
Catholics have deserted the doctrine of Atonement. Now they deserted the inspiration of the scriptures. I am aghast, but not surprised. But, more importantly, I'm sure the early church fathers would be aghast as well who took great pains to ensure the inspirational scriptures would be recognized for just what they were.
John Knox came along in the sixteenth century. If it hadn’t been for the Catholic Church, he wouldn’t have HAD a Bible. Nor would Martin Luther have had one earlier. It is the Catholic Church that goes back through history to the beginning. The Protestant Churches didn’t come along until 1500 years later.
Moreover, it was the Catholic Church that Christianized Europe and spread the Bible among all the peoples of Europe, beginning in Ireland after the fall of Rome, then to England, and then back to France and Germany in time to teach Charlemaigne and his warriors what Christian learning was.
If the early Church Fathers had buried their Bibles in the ground and the Church had disappeared around the time of Constantine, not to pop up again until the time of Martin Luther—where would it have come from? Who would have told them where to dig up their Bibles? And why would they have wanted to, anyway, if they were all pagans?
The early Reformers tended to argue that the Church had been completely corrupted and essentially disappeared from the earth for a thousand years. Then how did Martin Luther get his education? Who gave him his Bible? Who taught him Latin? Who told him which books were in the Bible?
In other words, Protestants may believe that their religion is better than Catholicism. And Catholics may believe the reverse. But without Catholicism, there could have been no Protestantism.
An interesting thought experiment, which these Protestant claims to exclusivity seem to me to raise.
Could God have taken a pagan Martin Luther, thrown him down from his horse, and inspired him with all the teachings of the Bible? Of course. With God, all things were possible. But I don’t notice Luther claiming that any such thing happened.
Is English not a tongue you are familiar with? Why twist the truth so violently when ON THE FACE OF IT my post is at total odds with your claim?
I repeat: discipline is not doctrine. All these orders follow Catholic doctrine. Whether they wear sandals or shoes, black or brown habits, have a teaching apostolate, missionary apostolate, or choose the cloistered life, they are Catholic.
In truth, there are just as many divisions within the Catholic Church as there probably are with Protestants.
No, there are not. And it would be impossible to support that contention.
But to make a LONG, LONG argument short, Pinckaers proposes (following Aquinas) that freedom is "Freedom FOR excellence" before it is freedom FROM anything.
I'm not sure what is "more than moral good", but I'm still confused. Are they talking about regenerate or unregenerate man? I can't imagine the latter, as that would indicate the view that when born (now) the human is naturally drawn to the good. That would not match my understanding of the Catholic view of original sin. If this is the case, would you fill me in?
If, however, they are supposing regenerate man then the above makes much more sense to me. Even so, I would reorder what Pinckaers said to be: "Once we are free FROM the bondage of sin we are THEN free FOR excellence".
Anyway, thanks much for the book suggestions. The Feser book does sound really interesting.
The Catholic Church today is not the same as the Catholic Church of John Knox or Luther’s time. It CERTAINLY is not the Catholic Church of Augustine’s time.
It’s like saying a Democrat today is the same as in JFK’s time. It’s simply wrong.
Sorry, no dice. I'm not the one twisting the truth and you can read that in your definition. It states very plainly that there are other sources of "inspired" works. Are you going to deny that?
My question would be how now do you determine if something is "inspired"? Can you tell me how this is any different than the LDS saying the Book of Mormons is inspired? Is it just because a group of people says so? Well, the Mormons have that as well.
Since you say that I'm reading this wrong, please let me know what is "inspired" and "uninspired", which is what started this conversation. It is interesting that EVEN the Council of Trent knew-although I wouldn't agree with all of their choices.
I hope the brethren will keep me in line if I'm mistaken here. We are drawn to what we think is good. But we are disordered in several ways. One is our will is not strong. It would be good for me to lose 30 lbs. There is considerable good in a double bacon cheeseburger. Even if I know which good is better, I may not follow through. I'm going along, and somebody whose company I enjoy says, around lunch time, "Hey! DBCB!" It's hard to say, "No, thanks, I'll watch."
Then we are not sure, clear, right about what's good. This explains some Democrats. ;-)
The unquestionable good of giving to the needy is not always better than the good of letting the needy deal with their challenges.
And when we get to matters of deep moral judgment, we're very disordered.
But classic scholastic thought is that we are always motivated by what we THINK will provide SOME 'good' even if it's the totally deranged satisfaction I (hypothetically) get from having people envy me or fear me. In that case the satisfaction is, so to speak, worth more to me than justice, charity, etc.
And Our thinking is inevitably deficient without revelation and the "infused virtues" (faith, hope, and charity). Anybody over about 18 can see that it just won't work if people have sex with whomever they want and move in an out of relationships on a whim. Well, anybody except Democrats.
But it's a matter of revelation that monogamy 'as long as you both shall live' is THE way to do sexual relationships, and it's a matter of infused charity (and other gifts) to make marriage something which sanctifies husband and wife.
I hope that gives a flavor of the thinking.
I think the language about freedom is confused because we are trying to find a word which suits God, angels, and saints. Certainly in humans "Freedom TO excellence" requires "freedom from sin, wherefore it is written "For FREEDOM Christ has set you free."
I think you will enjoy parts of Feser while it also will give a kind of primer of modern scholastic realism. But you don't need to agree with him to be punching the air and saying to your wife, "Hey listen to THIS!"
I really don't see how you get this from the text. Really.
You quoted:Inspiration can be considered in God, who produces it; in man, who is its object; and in the text, which is its term.
God, to be precise, is not "inspired". He inspires, and He inspires the mind of man, as the article's quote of 2 Pet 1:21 suggests.
In a section called
Erroneous views proposed by Catholic authors
the article condemns the view that the Church can make a "merely human writing" inspired. Earlier is says that no writing of the post apostolic age can be in the canon.
Can you help me see how the article says what you say it says?
Sorry, no dice.Indeed, no dice. You twist words, you make black white and then run a victory lap. Sad.
Did I misread the text? Are you confirming that only scripture is the inspired word of God and error free?
Tick...tick...tick...
Go ahead, tell us yours.
I believe I have. ONLY God’s holy scriptures are inspired by Him, given to us without error. All other works are not inspired and prone to error.
Would you agree?
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