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To: Lorica; Gamecock
The comparison of discipline to doctrine simply falls flat on its face, although it's nice to see the various orders in one list.

I'm not sure that I would agree. Each order has rules and regulations. And I never even went into the Latin Church, the Greek Church, etc. which all have widely different procedures. Certainly the Greek and the Latin Churches feel they are together (somewhat), yet the Greeks no way accept the rule of the Pope. We could go on and on about various Catholic Churches who have pagan rituals or openly flaunt the directives of the Church on things like abortion. It is disingenuious for Catholics to suggest that they are "one big happy family" and are not like Protestants at all. In truth, there are just as many divisions within the Catholic Church as there probably are with Protestants.

382 posted on 01/07/2010 4:30:04 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
I have a feeling this is going to come out like the conversations on "substance." In theory all the "orders" despite their different ways of doing things, are subject to the same overall rules as other Catholics, certainly as other Catholics of their rite. IF, as has happened, they are persistently disobedient, the Pope can, and has, wiped them out, at least for a while.

A lot of women's orders have gotten a little hinkie in the years since VatII and currently they are being, as it were, audited. There's significant mitching and boaning, and the chances are that there will be some defections when it all shakes out. But they are not formally denying access to the people from the Pope.

Dominicans may FEEL they are better than other orders, or than secular clergy, but they don't THINK that they are in principle.

I don't know about "happy family." I do know that there is not some supreme Baptist or Presbyterian Body to which all Baptists or Presbyterians think they owe some kind of obedience. But Dominicans, Jesuits, Franciscans, Carmelites, Benedictines, and the gazillions of other little groups know that they need Papal recognition for their official corporate existence and that they are accountable to the Pope.

When there are disagreements, either with orders or with individual pastors - one in DC a decade or two ago and one currently in Oz -- first their bishops come down on them. It's usually slow, patient, gradual, even reluctant. But sooner or later the Bishop will say, "I have title to that building and property, you have 30 days to vacate the premises." And if 'vacation' doesn't happen, then there is some shilly-shallying around, but finally the law will be called to enforce the bishop's property rights.

So with orders. Right now there is a group of lay people wearing Dominican habits as though this were say, the 15th century, and following some version of the Dominican Rule and directories. But the various Dominican muckety mucks not only have NOT acknowledged them as Dominicans, but have let the rest of us know that they are NOT acknowledged. So our involvement is ended.

They can wear what they like and if they get a priest to give them the sacraments, they can receive the sacraments. We think they're weird, they probably think we're unbearably liberal, but life goes on.

But this is why orders in the Catholic Church are not, that I can see, very like Denominations which call themselves, say, Presbyterian. ALL the orders, at least theoretically, as part of their responsibility to God, are also responsible to someone with a Post Office address. And the seculars, going up the chain of subsidiarity, are answerable to the same PO.

But NOT all those who call themselves Baptist are responsible to someone at some address somewhere, someone to whom SBC and Jimmy Carter's outfit and them Yankee Babdisds and all of em all answer to.

So I'm arguing it's different.

383 posted on 01/07/2010 4:56:07 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: HarleyD
I'm not sure that I would agree. Each order has rules and regulations.

I repeat: discipline is not doctrine. All these orders follow Catholic doctrine. Whether they wear sandals or shoes, black or brown habits, have a teaching apostolate, missionary apostolate, or choose the cloistered life, they are Catholic.

In truth, there are just as many divisions within the Catholic Church as there probably are with Protestants.

No, there are not. And it would be impossible to support that contention.

390 posted on 01/07/2010 7:13:18 PM PST by Lorica
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