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To: Iscool; Salvation
I'm actually sure you don't wonder.

Would that be "mind-reading?" Not to mention calling me a liar?

I'm actually sure I do wonder, and I wonder often about the best ways to clarify the difference.

It might seem that sister Salvation is making the case harder by saying that it's a KIND of worship, but that's more a matter of language than of meaning. After all, "worship" used to be used of people of great wealth, as in (from memory) the description of a graveyard in which were buried "many of honor [nobility] and many of worship [wealth]. If one is going to attempt theology, one has to gain some mastery over the Trivial arts, grammar, logic, and rhetoric or one will waste too much time chasing spectres and moonbeams.

The problem is that some Protestants live in what seems to be a faintly Manichean and dualistic theological universe. And, probably because their "worship" experience is so tied to their culture, they are provincial (both geographically and temporally) in their understanding of language and gesture. This leads to a kind of superstitious fear of the customs of others.

Many Catholics are exuberant and expressive in their worship. We beat our breast, kiss things as a sign of respect, bow our heads at the name of Jesus or at the mention of great mysteries, like the Incarnation.

On the other hand, some Protestants make a virtue of cultural reserve. So when they see a Catholic kneeling, as I often do, before an icon of St. Dominic, they, somewhat simple-mindedly, think I am paying him divine honors. In THEIR conventions and language of gesture kneeling is a sign of divine honors. But being provincial in outlook, they confuse their customs with divine or natural law.

Similarly with appeals to saints. I'll ask St Anthony to "help me out here," when I can't find my glasses. The legalistic Protestant (not that all are legalistic, or that any are legalistic in every respect) thinks that because I didn't say "By your intercession" I must think Anthony is a kind of demi-god.

I'm suddenly struck with a fantasy of Protestant courtship:

Darling, of course you are not the most important person in the world to me. Jesus is more important.
And when I say if you accepted my proposal that would make me very happy, I think I should point out that only Jesus can give me real and lasting happiness, while you, as a mortal and a redeemed (I hope, but of course I am not sure) sinner cannot even approximate the happiness that God gives eternally.
And while your eyes are beautiful, they are as nothing compared to the beauty of Holiness which surrounds the Mercy Seat ... Hey, where are you going? I'm not finished!
Because we do not comport ourselves in line with Protestant cultural norms and we do not express ourselves within the strict guidelines of Protestant approved rhetoric, those who say works and legalism have nothing to do with salvation say we are not only wrong but damnable.

This is the kind of thing that helps one develop a sense of the absurd.

474 posted on 12/09/2009 4:05:21 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
This is the kind of thing that helps one develop a sense of the absurd.

Ha, in other words, don't pay any attention to what you see, what we do or what you hear...It looks like worship, it quacks like worship, it walks like worship but you just don't understand because you do not have mastery over the Trivial arts, grammar, logic, and rhetoric like we do...

Yep, poor ole simple Protestants just don't understand that asking Mary to provide grace and salvation isn't worship...

522 posted on 12/09/2009 8:48:10 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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