“That still doesn’t explain why he preached and than ranted for their unbelief if he knew they would not change their minds.”
I dunno...I’ve ranted at my computer over some of your posts...
However, for predestination, it occurred to me that it might help to simply look at what scripture says, rather than what people say it says. And FWIW, I think it is closer to the Catholic & Orthodox view than Calvin’s....if I understand the Catholic and Orthodox views!
The bulk of it seems to be found here:
Predestination
proorizo-
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Wuest commenting on proorizo writes that...
The genius of the word is that of placing limitations upon someone or something beforehand, these limitations bringing that person or thing within the sphere of a certain future or destiny. These meanings are carried over into the New Testament usage of the word. Thus, the “chosen-out” ones, have had limitations put around them which bring them within the sphere of becoming God’s children by adoption (Eph 1:5-note), and of being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus (Ro 8:29). (Wuest, K. S. Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Eerdmans)
Act 4:28
“27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
Rom 8:29, 30:
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
1Cor 2:7:
“6Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
Eph 1:5, 11:
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
John 6:
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
41So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
There are other passages that affect the debate, and there are a number of passages talking about ‘the elect’, but for the moment, lets focus on “predestination”.
From Acts we learn that it was part of God’s plan that people would threaten and oppose God;s plan of redemption thru Jesus Christ. It doesn’t say God CAUSED the opposition, but that it happened in accordance with His plan.
Romans teaches us that all things work together for the good of those who love God. Why? “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son...”, and since being conformed to the image of Christ is good, all things work for our good - not our pleasure, but our good.
Again, it doesn’t say God predestined us to become Christians, but that “those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son”, and these are the ones He called. Hmmm...foreknew comes first, then a predestined destination for those He foreknew, and then He called those folks.
There may be some controversy over the idea that God knows in advance who will or will not believe - but there isn’t a lot.
From 1 Corinthians, we see that God’s plan of salvation didn’t just pop up, but has been something He has expected and worked towards. Not much controversy there!
In Ephesians, we find that believers - since that is those whom Paul is addressing - “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.” OK, so God has always intended that believers should be holy and blameless before Him. What else...
“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.” It doesn’t say He predestined individuals to be saved or damned, but that those who believe are predestined to obtain an inheritance, so that we might be to the praise of his glory.
None of this seems to imply irresistable grace - that God saves the unwilling, or predestined damnation - that God picks out a bunch of folks he wants to damn.
Those may not be Calvinist teachings, but they certainly don’t seem to be scriptural teachings, no matter where they come from!
In John 6, we have, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out...No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”
Who does the Father give to the Son? Given that 2 sentences earlier he says, “whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst”, and 3 sentences later says, “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day”, it seems plausible that the ones the Father gives the Son are those who believe.
Can God reveal Himself and not be believed? Well, it looks to me like the entire 6th chapter of John is evidence that you can see the miracles of Jesus, and have Jesus talking to you face to face, and not believe.
All this seems to sum up as:
God has always planned that those who believe in Jesus will be given the gift of regeneration and the Holy Spirit, and saved from a wicked world to be conformed to his Son. He knows who will believe, and works all things to their good - becoming like Christ, and for God to receive praise and glory.
What I do not see is that God forces some individuals to live so as to be damned, or forces others to believe in spite of themselves. Predestination seems to suggest the destination is planned, not who will take the journey. That is fore-known, not fore-forced.
This is consistent with John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” and 1 Tim 2: “1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” and 2 Peter 3 “9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
I’m sure some disagree, and would like to know why...
I am curious to see what the Calvinist crowd will say.
It doesn’t say God CAUSED the opposition, but that it happened in accordance with His plan.
Oh, so God did not cause the opposition? He merely "planned" and "hoped" [?] that it happens? Was the people's opposition perchance caused by their "hardened hearts?" And if so, WHO caused their hearts to harden?
Now, perhaps you can for a moment put on a Calvinist hat and ask yourself if that opposition was in any way God's will?
Then you can ask yourself if God's will is the cause of everything and all, visible and invisible?
Then you can rant at yourself. :)
Not to change the subject, but I couldn't help but notice yet another Pauline pearl your posted in Rom 8:27 "because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
Another fine example that the Church did not from the beginning teach the Holy Trinity as defined by the Councils centuries later. Paul makes clear distinction between God and the Spirit (i.e. the Spirit is not the same as God); clearly for Pauline Spirit is a loyal, subordinated servant of God.
Are you ranting?... :)
By definition, a "plan" comes before execution, and the one who writes the "plan" orchestrates the plan. God doesn't wait around for something to occur and then react by saying, "ok, now I'll take creation THIS way."
First the plan, and then the fulfillment of that plan.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Eph. 1:4-6"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
As Harley said in pointing out the deficiency of the papist view of Predestination, "it's a mystery" does not give due diligence to the revealed doctrine in Scripture of God's ordination of all things.
Again, it doesn't say God predestined us to become Christians, but that "those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son", and these are the ones He called. Hmmm...foreknew comes first, then a predestined destination for those He foreknew, and then He called those folks.
"Foreknew" does not mean a simple awareness of one's actions. It carries a creative connotation - to "foreknow" means to actualize in real time.
"...To quote Dr. James Montgomery Boice in his comments on Romans 8:29, "the verse does not say that God foreknew what certain of his creatures would do. It is not talking about human actions at all. On the contrary, it is speaking entirely of God and of what God does. Each of these five terms is like that: God foreknew, God predestined, God called, God justified, God glorified. Besides, the object of the divine foreknowledge is not the actions of certain people but the people themselves. In this sense it can only mean that God has fixed a special attention upon them or loved them savingly."
I hope you read the link. It's quite persuasive. Because ultimately, if God's salvation is predicated on men's clever, prudent decision to believe, then men determine their own redemption and God is beholden to men by their acquiescence to His wish (and not to His plan set in stone from before the foundation of the world and carried out ONLY by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.)
Otherwise, you agree with what Rome believes - "do this and be saved" - and thus the Reformation is obliterated and we're all back to a God who rewards our own "filthy rags" rather than Christ's work alone within us.
Predestination seems to suggest the destination is planned, not who will take the journey.
The world wants to convince you that God has not written your name in the Book of Life based solely on His good pleasure alone. The world is wrong.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Phil. 2:13"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." -- Proverbs 16:4