Posted on 11/24/2009 4:10:44 PM PST by NYer
Statistics released Nov. 24 by the FBI show hate crimes against religious groups increased by 9% from 2007 to 2008.
USA Today reported that in 2008, there 1,519 incidents against people based on their religion, the statistics show.
The figures reveal that while anti-Jewish attacks made up the highest percentage of the attacks (17%), there was an increase in hate crimes against Catholics — 75, up from 61 in 2007.
Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, said the increase may be due to the Church becoming more vocal on life issues such as abortion and homosexual unions.
As the Catholic bishops take a stronger stance, he said, it filters down to the laity, and as more traditional Catholics become more vocal, they become targets for those who disagree with them.
“Unfortunately, it spills over into violence,” he said, adding that it’s just going to get worse before it gets better.
“I’ve never seen our country so culturally divided and so polarized,” he said. “These issues are not going away.”
I am curious to see what the Calvinist crowd will say.
It doesn’t say God CAUSED the opposition, but that it happened in accordance with His plan.
Oh, so God did not cause the opposition? He merely "planned" and "hoped" [?] that it happens? Was the people's opposition perchance caused by their "hardened hearts?" And if so, WHO caused their hearts to harden?
Now, perhaps you can for a moment put on a Calvinist hat and ask yourself if that opposition was in any way God's will?
Then you can ask yourself if God's will is the cause of everything and all, visible and invisible?
Then you can rant at yourself. :)
Not to change the subject, but I couldn't help but notice yet another Pauline pearl your posted in Rom 8:27 "because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
Another fine example that the Church did not from the beginning teach the Holy Trinity as defined by the Councils centuries later. Paul makes clear distinction between God and the Spirit (i.e. the Spirit is not the same as God); clearly for Pauline Spirit is a loyal, subordinated servant of God.
Are you ranting?... :)
“Oh, so God did not cause the opposition? He merely “planned” and “hoped” [?] that it happens?”
To expect something and plan for it is not to cause it.
“Was the people’s opposition perchance caused by their “hardened hearts?”
Quite possibly. Romans 1: “Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”
That doesn’t make their hearts bad, but makes manifest the evil that is already there and in control.
” Not to change the subject, but I couldn’t help but notice yet another Pauline pearl your posted in Rom 8:27 “because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”/Another fine example that the Church did not from the beginning teach the Holy Trinity as defined by the Councils centuries later...for Pauline Spirit is a loyal, subordinated servant of God.”
Why? When I anticipate my wife’s needs and take care of them, or she mine, that makes us married, not subservient servants. I look out for her because I love her and want her happiness, as she does with me. Think of it as 2 persons, but “one flesh”...
“I am curious to see what the Calvinist crowd will say.”
So am I! ;>)
By definition, a "plan" comes before execution, and the one who writes the "plan" orchestrates the plan. God doesn't wait around for something to occur and then react by saying, "ok, now I'll take creation THIS way."
First the plan, and then the fulfillment of that plan.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Eph. 1:4-6"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
As Harley said in pointing out the deficiency of the papist view of Predestination, "it's a mystery" does not give due diligence to the revealed doctrine in Scripture of God's ordination of all things.
Again, it doesn't say God predestined us to become Christians, but that "those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son", and these are the ones He called. Hmmm...foreknew comes first, then a predestined destination for those He foreknew, and then He called those folks.
"Foreknew" does not mean a simple awareness of one's actions. It carries a creative connotation - to "foreknow" means to actualize in real time.
"...To quote Dr. James Montgomery Boice in his comments on Romans 8:29, "the verse does not say that God foreknew what certain of his creatures would do. It is not talking about human actions at all. On the contrary, it is speaking entirely of God and of what God does. Each of these five terms is like that: God foreknew, God predestined, God called, God justified, God glorified. Besides, the object of the divine foreknowledge is not the actions of certain people but the people themselves. In this sense it can only mean that God has fixed a special attention upon them or loved them savingly."
I hope you read the link. It's quite persuasive. Because ultimately, if God's salvation is predicated on men's clever, prudent decision to believe, then men determine their own redemption and God is beholden to men by their acquiescence to His wish (and not to His plan set in stone from before the foundation of the world and carried out ONLY by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.)
Otherwise, you agree with what Rome believes - "do this and be saved" - and thus the Reformation is obliterated and we're all back to a God who rewards our own "filthy rags" rather than Christ's work alone within us.
Predestination seems to suggest the destination is planned, not who will take the journey.
The world wants to convince you that God has not written your name in the Book of Life based solely on His good pleasure alone. The world is wrong.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Phil. 2:13"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." -- Proverbs 16:4
It makes sense. God the Father ordains. God the Son justifies. And God the Holy Spirit sanctifies.
A perfect plan.
“Because ultimately, if God’s salvation is predicated on men’s clever, prudent decision to believe, then men determine their own redemption and God is beholden to men by their acquiescence to His wish (and not to His plan set in stone from before the foundation of the world and carried out ONLY by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.)”
Not true. Man could desire any kind of salvation at all, but apart from God’s action, there is none. At a minimum, we know cleverness is not a prerequisite for belief - the opposite, if anything. Nothing I wrote suggests that men make the rules for salvation. Nothing I wrote suggests that men save themselves.
If God’s plan is to save those who believe by grace through faith, none of that changes if the individual can believe or not.
Here is a horse example, if you will pardon me...When I was younger, I rode horses when visiting ranches, and rarely rode the same horse twice. All I wanted was obedience - for the horse to start when I want, go where I want, and stop when I want - like a motorcycle.
After 25 years with no horses, I ended up buying three. They live in my back yard. Now my goal is not subservience, but friendly cooperation. I want my horses to be active participants in what we do together. I want them to ENJOY being ridden. That takes a different approach to riding & discipline. And while it has taken time, all three now seem to look forward to being ridden. As we go ahead, I have one horse that I want to teach to jump. And I want HER to be very actively involved. I don’t know how her footing is, how strong her legs are feeling, and I don’t have particularly good depth perception - so I want HER to learn to think about the jump and adjust her strides and yes, if need be, to refuse a jump she doesn’t think she can make.
“Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God,[1] and to enjoy him forever.[2]”
God has predestined us to be sons, not servants. We are to be like Christ, not machines. This means we need to give willing obedience, and that would drive a different approach than just making us obey.
As for Romans, it says in verse 28 that all things work to our good. And why? In verse 29, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
That is why things work to our good, if not our pleasure - because he has predestined us “to be conformed to the image of his Son”. Yet before he predestined us, he “foreknew” us.
“Foreknew (proegnw).
Second aorist active indicative of proginwskw, old verb as in Acts 26:5. See Psalms 1:6 (LXX) and Matthew 7:23.”
Here are the places it is used:
Act 26:5 since they have [known] about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived {as} a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He [foreknew], He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He [foreknew]. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in {the passage about} Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
1Pe 1:20 For He was [foreknown] before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, [knowing this beforehand], be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
Psalms 1: 6 “for the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.”
Based on other scripture references for the same word, as opposed to someone telling me what he thinks the word should mean, I’d have to say foreknew means...knowing in advance.
“Otherwise, you agree with what Rome believes - “do this and be saved” - and thus the Reformation is obliterated and we’re all back to a God who rewards our own “filthy rags” rather than Christ’s work alone within us.”
I’ve pinged Petronski just to show I’m being accused of agreeing with Rome...although I suppose Petronski would phrase it, “complimented of agreeing with the Catholic Church”!
But I am not in any way suggesting that we merit grace by obeying the Law. Other than this law:
“28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”
29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” - John 6
You see, there seems to be 2 ways to interpret this verse:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
1 - Having predestinated [Dr E, Mr R, or annalex] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
or,
2 - Having predestinated [believers] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...
Interpretation 1 conflicts with God’s desiring that all be saved (example, “9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”). Interpretation 2 has no conflict with those passages. So I go with Number 2.
Still, I’m pretty simplistic, so I’ll await correction.
No, it doesn't. This is perhaps the principal Calvinist mistake: conflation of foreknowledge and fore-ordination.
Calvin posits a God who is not powerful enough to create humans with free will. False. Sola Boice has failed you.
Otherwise, you agree with what Rome believes - "do this and be saved" - . . .
You are not describing the teachings of the Catholic Church. Perhaps you don't intend to, but in any event, you are not.
. . . and thus the Reformation is obliterated and we're all back to a God who rewards our own "filthy rags" rather than Christ's work alone within us.
Another classic Calvinist error: faith OR works. No, false. Faith AND works. "Filthy rags" is a reference to the Psalms, correct? 64:6?
It's an admonition that works alone will not save, which is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. Works alone--like faith alone--is a false tradition of men.
Romans tells us that very clearly that the Law is written on our hearts. People know when they are breaking God's law without even having to be told. They are without excuse.
Sounds like you're admitting we have a free will.That would be a step in the right direction ,my friend, because that Law of of Love when followed is the will of God,thus, we can know when we follow His will because we know the Law of Love written on our hearts.
Catholic /Orthodox #101 ;)
Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Basil ,Saint Pio,Saint Augustine are equally important to being a Christian than Saint Paul.
Some seem to hold their interpretation of Saint Paul as being more important because of a book religion when there are other clear examples from Church Fathers who are Saints in unity with the Church's interpretation of Scripture
To think that Saint Paul was "ultra Spirit lead" above other Saints makes no sense to me. The Church is one mind one Body
You don't see a teeny-tiny irony in that statement?
John 6:29 clearly says that faith is the work of God in us, not of us, and this fact is re-enforced by Phil. 2:13.
Interpretation 1 conflicts with God's desiring that all be saved (example, "9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.").
God is certainly a generous, empathetic God, but if God actually wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved. I cannot imagine a God who created everything yet ultimately does not accomplish what He truly desires. That's Obama, not Jehovah.
Interpretation 2 has no conflict with those passages.
#2 puts the responsibility for salvation into the hands of men and their own good and wise choice to believe, which denies God His determing election based on nothing men first do but on His good pleasure alone (Ephesians 1.)
Maybe you need Toplady's refresher course on ARMINIANISM, THE ROAD BACK TO ROME. 8~)
The other day you said you had been arguing predestination at church. I hope the oppossing arguments were convincing. All Christians are entitled to the blessed assurance that the doctrine of predestination affords.
I agree about stimulating disagreement, but you must not be married. My husband says the 10 sweetest words he could ever hear from me are -- "I see. I never thought of it that way before."
The Hebrew Sheol is a place. Spirits like Samuel's (when called forth by the sorceress at the request of Saul) he is brought "up". Some instances in that passage might mean "to meet", but 14 & 15 seem to imply an upward movement from a lower place. Sheol has the meaning of "underworld" (subterranean, pit), although it is not inconsistent with the sense of darkness - out of God's light - without praise of God.
In the NT Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus all describe types of Hells.
In the NT Heaven is an assembly of Saints or even the abode of God (His presence is not everywhere, but somewhere). Christ also ascends up to Heaven (bodily). In the OT Heaven is a bit more amorphous. Sky, the celestial heavens of stars, planets, etc. and the abode of God.
Cannot Heaven and Hell both be places and conditions? After the Resurrection what is the location of Resurrected bodies?
“No, it doesn’t. This is perhaps the principal Calvinist mistake: conflation of foreknowledge and fore-ordination.”
It’s the same Greek word. Paul says foreknew in Rom. 8:23 and Peter says foreordained in 1 Pet. 1:20, so it does carry the idea of actualization.
And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body. —Rom. 8:23
The man-made tradition of men known as Calvinist predestination affords little more than confusion at best, damnation at worst.
You write: “John 6:29 clearly says that faith is the work of God in us, not of us, and this fact is re-enforced by Phil. 2:13.”
John Calvin wrote:
“29. The work of God is this. They had spoken of works Christ reminds them of one work, that is, faith; by which he means that all that men undertake without faith is vain and useless, but that faith alone is sufficient, because this alone does God require from us, that we believe For there is here an implied contrast between faith and the works and efforts of men; as if he had said, Men toil to no purpose, when they endeavor to please God without faith, because, by running, as it were, out of the course, they do not advance towards the goal. This is a remarkable passage, showing that, though men torment themselves wretchedly throughout their whole life, still they lose their pains, if they have not faith in Christ as the rule of their life. Those who infer from this passage that faith is the gift of God are mistaken; for Christ does not now show what God produces in us, but what he wishes and requires from us.
But we may think it strange that God approves of nothing but faith alone; for the love of our neighbor ought not to be despised, and the other exercises of religion do not lose their place and honor. So then, though faith may hold the highest rank, still other works are not superfluous. The reply is easy; for faith does not exclude either the love of our neighbor or any other good work, because it contains them all within itself. Faith is called the only work of God, because by means of it we possess Christ, and thus become the sons of God, so that he governs us by his Spirit. So then, because Christ does not separate faith from its fruits, we need not wonder if he make it to be the first and the last.
That you believe in him whom he hath sent. What is the import of the word believe, we have explained under the Third Chapter. It ought always to be remembered that, in order to have a full perception of the power of faith, we must understand what Christ is, in whom we believe, and why he was given to us by the Father. It is idle sophistry, under the pretext of this passage, to maintain that we are justified by works, if faith justifies, because it is likewise called a work First, it is plain enough that Christ does not speak with strict accuracy, when he calls faith a work, just as Paul makes a comparison between the law of faith and the law of works, (Romans 3:27.) Secondly, when we affirm that men are not justified by works, we mean works by the merit of which men may obtain favor with God. Now faith brings nothing to God, but, on the contrary, places man before God as empty and poor, that he may be filled with Christ and with his grace. It is, therefore, if we may be allowed the expression, a passive work, to which no reward can be paid, and it bestows on man no other righteousness than that which he receives from Christ.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom34.xii.iv.html
It seems odd that Calvinists reject what John Calvin actually wrote.
You cite Philippians 2:13, without remembering Philippians 2:12. Read together, we have: “12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”
We can do nothing apart from God, but this truth does not mean we should do nothing.
Barnes has good comments on this passage - see:
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=php&chapter=002
Also the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith:
“15.3 Saving repentance is a gospel grace [1] by which we are made aware of the many evils of our sin by the Holy Spirit. [2] By faith in Christ [3] we humble ourselves over our sin with godly sorrow, hatred of it, and self-loathing. We pray for pardon and strength of grace, [4] and determine and endeavour, by [the power] supplied by the Spirit, to walk before God and to please him in all things. [5]
15.4 Repentance is to continue through the whole course of our lives because of our ‘body of death’ and its activities. [1] So it is everyone’s duty to repent of particular known sins with particular care. [2]
15.5 In the covenant of grace God has made full provision through Christ for the preservation of believers in their salvation, so, although even the smallest sin deserves damnation, [1] yet there is no sin great enough to bring damnation on those who repent. This makes the constant preaching of repentance essential. [2]”
and
“16.3 Their ability to do these good works does not in any way come from themselves, but entirely from the Spirit of Christ. To enable them to do good works (besides the graces they have already received) they require the actual influence of the Holy Spirit to cause them to will and to do his good pleasure. [1] Yet are they not on this account to become negligent, nor to think that they are not required to perform a duty unless given a special impulse of the Spirit; rather, they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them. [2]”
I seriously doubt that either I or the Baptists of 1689 are halfway across the Tiber...or even close to its banks!
You write: “God is certainly a generous, empathetic God, but if God actually wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved. I cannot imagine a God who created everything yet ultimately does not accomplish what He truly desires. That’s Obama, not Jehovah.”
I’m a Sola Scriptura kind of guy.
“3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2
“7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” - 2 Peter 3
It is taught explicitly that God wants all to come to repentance. Since universal salvation is contrary to many scriptures, we must conclude that some of those God would wishes to repent do not do so. If there is another way to interpret those verses, and others like them, then please share the other and better interpretation.
Some Calvinists (of the OPC flavor especially) are known to strut about bragging of being more Calvinist than Calvin.
So what are God's interventions? Unplanned damage control? God got caught by surprise?
That doesn’t make their hearts bad, but makes manifest the evil that is already there and in control.
You are cherry-picking. The Pharaoh's heart was intentionally hardened not by some "evil" but by God, so that he may not believe. Perhaps the Pharaoh wasn't really a person with a "bad" heart, but God wanted to make sure it was bad enough (unbelieving) so the Hebrews could have their Exodus, or else there would have been no parting of the sea, no lamb, no blood, no salvation...OMG! :)
The Bible is telling you that in order for good things to happen to some people, God makes sure bad things happen to other people first. Do you think Judas' decision was an accident God was "waiting" and "hoping" for or was that a foregone outcome? And just who decided that Judas would make "his" decision precisely at that time, and in that place? After all, without Judas making his decision there might not be crucifixion and then what?! God waits for another "opportunity?"
Or did the sin in the Garden just happen and God didn't "plan" it that way? If this life is a movie and God is the director, then God decided how it develops and how it ends; it is all his doing, not just planning. Or else he is not the director and it's not his movie; in other words, he is not sovereign God, the cause of everything and all, and this is not his sole creation.
Of course, the Church doesn't teach this, because it would turn most people off, but the Bible leaves very little doubt that God is doing things, whether it's brining on the Floord, or parting the sea, or turning people into salt, or making believers and unbelievers out of them.
Why? When I anticipate my wife’s needs and take care of them, or she mine, that makes us married, not subservient servants. I look out for her because I love her and want her happiness, as she does with me. Think of it as 2 persons, but “one flesh”...
Is your wife doing what is your will? If so, than she is your servant. I have never heard of God (the Father) doing anything according to the will of the Son, or as the Spirit wanted! But it is clear that both the Son and the Spirit, at least in the earliest Church, did only and always what the Father (the only one identified as God) willed and wanted.
I am glad you think your wife and you are "one flesh" but two persons. That's nice but very novel. The Bible tells us otherwise. Apostle Paul (who is inspired, remember?) says that "the man is the head of the woman." That doesn't sound very co-equal to me, but rather as the woman being subordinated to the man, or as Paul says as "Christ is the head of every man, and God is the head of Christ." [1 Cor 11:3]
Mystery is not the opposite of simple. Mystery is something not given in sensations, such as the eternal existence of God.
But we Catholics insist that God is simple.
Regarding predestination, I think that both what you subscribe to, monergism, and Molinism: predestination following the foreknown act of free will — are simple. Aquinas might have complicated things a little.
I came across this quote from Calvin a few days ago, and thought how utterly unlike it is to the image of Calvin normally presented:
4. This is the place to address those who, having nothing of Christ but the name and sign, would yet be called Christians. How dare they boast of this sacred name? None have intercourse with Christ but those who have acquired the true knowledge of him from the Gospel. The Apostle denies that any man truly has learned Christ who has not learned to put off “the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and put on Christ,” (Eph. iv. 22.) They are convicted, therefore, of falsely and unjustly pretending a knowledge of Christ, whatever be the volubility and eloquence with which they can talk of the Gospel. Doctrine is not an affair of the tongue, but of the life; is not apprehended by the intellect and memory merely, like other branches of learning; but is received only when it possesses the whole soul, and finds its seat and habitation in the inmost recesses of the heart. Let them, therefore, either cease to insult God, by boasting that they are what they are not, or let them show themselves not unworthy disciples of their divine Master. To doctrine in which our religion is contained we have given the first place, since by it our salvation commences; but it must be transfused into the breast, and pass into the conduct, and so transform us into itself, as not to prove unfruitful. If philosophers are justly offended, and banish from their company with disgrace those who, while professing an art which ought to be the mistress of their conduct, convert it into mere loquacious sophistry, with how much better reason shall we detest those flimsy sophists who are contented to let the Gospel play upon their lips, when, from its efficacy, it ought to penetrate the inmost affections of the heart, fix its seat in the soul, and pervade the whole man a hundred times more than the frigid discourses of philosophers?
5. I insist not that the life of the Christian shall breathe nothing but the perfect Gospel, though this is to be desired, and ought to be attempted. I insist not so strictly on evangelical perfection, as to refuse to acknowledge as a Christian any man who has not attained it. In this way all would be excluded from the Church, since there is no man who is not far removed from this perfection, while many, who have made but little progress, would be undeservedly rejected. What then? Let us set this before our eye as the end at which we ought constantly to aim. Let it be regarded as the goal towards which we are to run. For you cannot divide the matter with God, undertaking part of what his word enjoins, and omitting part at pleasure. For, in the first place, God uniformly recommends integrity as the principal part of his worship, meaning by integrity real singleness of mind, devoid of gloss and fiction, and to this is opposed a double mind; as if it had been said, that the spiritual commencement of a good life is when the internal affections are sincerely devoted to God, in the cultivation of holiness and justice. But seeing that, in this earthly prison of the body, no man is supplied with strength sufficient to hasten in his course with due alacrity, while the greater number are so oppressed with weakness, that hesitating, and halting, and even crawling on the ground, they make little progress, let every one of us go as far as his humble ability enables him, and prosecute the journey once begun. No one will travel so badly as not daily to make some degree of progress. This, therefore, let us never cease to do, that we may daily advance in the way of the Lord; and let us not despair because of the slender measure of success. How little soever the success may correspond with our wish, our labor is not lost when to-day is better than yesterday, provided with true singleness of mind we keep our aim, and aspire to the goal, not speaking flattering things to ourselves, nor indulging our vices, but making it our constant endeavor to become better, until we attain to goodness itself. If during the whole course of our life we seek and follow, we shall at length attain it, when relieved from the infirmity of flesh we are admitted to full fellowship with God.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/chr_life.iii.html
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