Posted on 11/24/2009 4:10:44 PM PST by NYer
Statistics released Nov. 24 by the FBI show hate crimes against religious groups increased by 9% from 2007 to 2008.
USA Today reported that in 2008, there 1,519 incidents against people based on their religion, the statistics show.
The figures reveal that while anti-Jewish attacks made up the highest percentage of the attacks (17%), there was an increase in hate crimes against Catholics — 75, up from 61 in 2007.
Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, said the increase may be due to the Church becoming more vocal on life issues such as abortion and homosexual unions.
As the Catholic bishops take a stronger stance, he said, it filters down to the laity, and as more traditional Catholics become more vocal, they become targets for those who disagree with them.
“Unfortunately, it spills over into violence,” he said, adding that it’s just going to get worse before it gets better.
“I’ve never seen our country so culturally divided and so polarized,” he said. “These issues are not going away.”
Did Judas have a choice? And if he didn't betray Jesus, what would be the end of the movie, and accorddng to whose choreography? Did the Pharaoh have a choice? And if he believed Moses there would be no lamb, no blood, so who could then Jesus be?
The plain fact is they won't be your slaves unless they are willing to be your slaves. Horse have enough power to resist you. Humans have no such power compared to God (theoretically speaking). More on the earthly level, it would be silly to say that we are "willing companions" of nature; we have no way to resist it. But we can pretend that we are "cooperating."
“More likely the words mean what they say. Faith is a work.”
More likely, they are meant to be read as adults read things. When I give my child a gift, it is a gift of love - a gift given because of love. When my child cleans a room to make Dad happy, it is a work of love - a work done because of love. Hmm...work and gift, both of love? But then, gift and work don’t modify love, but love modifies gift/work. And in Romans 10:8, it is the “word of faith” - so is faith just a word? Read scripture as an adult.
You cite Romans 9:11. Lets look at it...in context.
In Romans 9-11, Paul addresses what William Barclay calls “the problem of the Jews. They were God’s chosen people; they had a unique place in God’s purposes; and yet when God’s Son had come into the world they had rejected him and crucified him. How is this tragic paradox to be explained?”
Chapter 9 is not about how we are saved, but about how the Jews fell.
“1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen...
...30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.””
The point of Chapter 9 is not that we are are arbitrarily saved and then given faith, but that the Chosen People - the Jews - failed because of lack of faith.
Paul goes on in Chapter 10: “1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes...
...8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again, if you are trying to say that God gives saving faith to one and withholds it from another, these aren’t chapters you want to read. In discussing why most of the Chosen People fail to follow Christ, Paul says they fail for our benefit, that we might be saved by faith.
In Chapter 11: “11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!”
And this requires action from us: “They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.”
Not, ‘they were broken off arbitrarily’, but “because of their unbelief”. So we Gentiles must not be proud in being ‘elect’, but fear - “For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you”.
Paul goes on: “Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved...28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.”
The gospel is different from the election of Israel. “As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God”, but “as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.”
If you apply the election of Israel to the Gospel, you are mixing apples and oranges. Context.
This is a very interesting series of posts. Thank you for your part in it.
Dr E, you write: “Does God give all men a heart of flesh and new ears and new eyes and a renewed mind with which to believe and repent?”
Are we renewed before we repent and believe, or as a result of repenting and believing?
You offer 2 Tim 1:7-9 as evidence:
“6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, 7for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began...”
Timothy is to testify without shame and to share in suffering for the Gospel. God has saved us by His power, and called us to a holy calling - to be conformed to Christ. And this has always been his purpose. He has ALWAYS planned for believers to be conformed to Christ!
This does not mean we are saved before faith. As boatbums points out,
“5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or “’Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Notice the sequence:
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
you will be saved.
10For with the heart one believes
and is justified,
and with the mouth one confesses
and is saved.”
It is an IF / THEN statement. And one believes and is justified. And one confesses and is saved.
This is contrary to what you are teaching.
Amen. Do all men have a heart of flesh to believe or are some men left with their hearts of stone and therefore are unable to believe?
Christ said a man must be born again in order to know the things of God. And regeneration by the Holy Spirit is God's prerogative; not men's.
Arminianism is truly the road back to Rome - salvation by men's own effort and not God's predetermined purpose. A real pity some Christians don't avail themselves of that blessed comfort.
I do believe that God is outside of time, that he is all-knowing, all-powerful, omni-present, etc. He knows the end from the beginning and it still fits within his plan that his offer of salvation applies to all mankind from the past, present and future. Jesus' own words say God so loved the world he gave his only son that whosoever believes in him would not perish but have eternal life.
Where the problem lies, I think, is when we humans try to figure out every thing about God and his ways. There are just some things that cannot be grasped with a finite mind. Jesus even said he told people of earthly things and they didn't believe, so how would they believe if he told them of heavenly things? It is interesting to discuss theology like this but there has to be a point where we say "I don't understand everything I know about that." and leave it there. :o)
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the WCF, Dr. E. Pray allow me to enlighten you.
Point the 1st. Your claim that the Gospel proofs are all from Scripture means in the WCF that they are Scriptural, not necessarily from the Gospels, but from anywhere in Scripture and mostly from snippets of Paul or from unrelated areas of the OT.
Point the 2nd. The secondary commentaries are Scriptural quotes that are related in the opinion of the authors to the point of the WCF statement, yet supporting or a commentary on the main proof of that statement.
Example: III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]
[10] HEB 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. ACT 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. MAR 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
This a random example in which Paul is cited as the main proof, and Acts and Mark are merely distantly related commentaries.
The whole bit about Judgement is on our deeds
Rome was wrong on that one centuries ago, and it is still wrong (and there's no "e" in the judgment "bit."
There is an 'e' in Judgement wherever proper English is spoken. And I love the trivialization of the "judgment bit". Matthew is heavily concerned with Judgement of all men; the Calvinists dismiss it and haughtily claim that only the damned will be Judged (the Calvinists will be Judged according to their Calvinism and therefore found to be saved from before the beginning of the world).
Jesus says Judged on our deeds and therefore Judged we will be. Regardless of the high school council crowd.
Did Judas have a choice?
Certainly. We do not believe that any man is condemned to hell by God.
And if he didn't betray Jesus, what would be the end of the movie, and accorddng to whose choreography?
If not Judas, than someone else. If God knew all before Creation, then He knew where and when and who. Foreknowledge and not predestination.
Did the Pharaoh have a choice? And if he believed Moses there would be no lamb, no blood, so who could then Jesus be?
I AM. There was somebody; there would have been somebody. It's not as if God was watching a movie; we believe that He is omnipresent - the Alpha and Omega and everything in between.
But Scripture is Scripture, Mark. It's all God-breathed.
Do you own a dictionary?
The verse in Isaiah says God "declared" the end from the beginning. So God doesn't just "know" what happens in life; He "declares" it all. He ordains all life according to His perfect purpose.
Jesus' own words say God so loved the world he gave his only son that whosoever believes in him would not perish but have eternal life.
Yes, aren't we fortunate God loves what He has created? And yet Christ says He doesn't pray for all the world but only for those whom God has given Him to redeem.
I agree there is a lot about God and life that will always remain a mystery to us in this life. But I don't think the comforting truth of predestination falls into category. I think God has revealed His control of His creation pretty explicitly. Thankfully.
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" -- 2 Timothy 1:9"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
If you have a couple minutes here's an excellent understanding of predestination by Greg Bahnsen.
There is something inherently incompatible with randomness and perfection, Mark. Creation and everything since then is described in the Bible as a deliberate and purposeful act of God. The beginning was not a random act simply foreknown to God, and it looks like the end isn't either. In both, God is actively participating, as he is in events that play themselves out in between. I don't see anything in the Bible described as random, but each event as purposefully leading one step closer to God's predestined end.
I have no problem with randomness, as long as there is no particular purpose implied in what happens. Neither foreknowledge nor predestination explain why God gets "angry," as he does throughout the Bible!? Why the frustration of Genesis 6:6, and God "regretting" having made man.
Predestination says that God creates a perfects storm to make sure things proceed on the right track. What you are saying is that God has to wait for a perfect storm rather than create it.
Good or bad, comedy or tragedy, if Romans 8:28 is true then life at any given moment is as it's supposed to be and tomorrow will always bring us one step closer to Him. As God wills.
Then it is something we create, like soothing music, or a good drink; a mood-setter.
I think the weight of evidence falls to predestination as opposed to randomness or God's acquiescence.
No doubt, everything that happens does so for sufficient reason, because of pre-existing conditions, or else it would not have happened. Every event has been cause and, ultimately, determined, by events leading up to it, except one, the initial cause of all existence. The first cause of all existence predetermined every event that occurred and will occur since then.
We simply don't know what caused it or why everything exists. We can only deduce that everything exists because of, ultimately, the "first cause," the event that created physical world.
The problem is that some make an a priori assumption that there is a purpose and intelligence in everything that has happened and will happen since the creation.
What intelligence and purpose do you find in endless space filled with rocks endlessly going around in circles or smashing each other into smithereens?
Certainly. Given the state of your posts and the fact that you don't recognized the proper English spelling, I give you:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/judgement
Noun 1. judgement - the legal document stating the reasons for a judicial decision; "opinions are usually written by a single judge"
2. judgement - an opinion formed by judging something; "he was reluctant to make his judgment known"; "she changed her mind"
3. judgement - the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions
4. judgement - the mental ability to understand and discriminate between relations
5. judgement - the capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions
6. judgement - (law) the determination by a court of competent jurisdiction on matters submitted to it
If you would go beyond the little valley only recently electrified in which you live, you might discover that the world is made up of much more than you had previously believed, including the fact that 'judgment' is a variant of 'judgement', which is the original English spelling.
Raving Calvinist Club
But Scripture is Scripture, Mark. It's all God-breathed.
Yes, I know. You have posted to me often enough that you would have us believe, for example, that 1 Chronicles 25 is as relevant and as important to us as Matthew 5, if not more so. It is all God-breathed, no? For the record, could you remind me of what you believe that God-breathed means? Without looking at anything, could you even tell us what 1 Chronicles 25 is about, and who is named there?
The doctrine of complete predestination leaves nothing to chance, or any manner of randomness whatsoever. Therefore, unless the purpose of God is to create robot zombies (in which case what is the purpose of Christ?), then Creation was created in order to set up a living cosmos with acts of randomness, well, randomly happening. Chaos theory. The end is known (foreknowledge), yet the events in between are free to happen. Does God meddle? Sure. Is he a robot puppet master? Not according to the Gospels, which is entirely about getting people to act, usually against their animal natures and for a humane, merciful action that would be associated with what we call a civilized people.
Plus, God does not wait. He is all and everywhere and everywhen. Alpha and Omega. God does not progress through time - God is already there whenever and wherever you point.
I wonder if there are levels, like are found in the Freemasons. 1st degree - hearing voices; 2nd degree - spastic twitches; 3rd degree - foaming at the mouth.
Awards of merit might include the Order of the Rubber Room, the Seeing Things that Aren't There cluster (with oak leaf), and the Chartreuse TULIP label pin.
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