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To: Dr. Eckleburg; boatbums

Dr E, you write: “Does God give all men a heart of flesh and new ears and new eyes and a renewed mind with which to believe and repent?”

Are we renewed before we repent and believe, or as a result of repenting and believing?

You offer 2 Tim 1:7-9 as evidence:

“6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, 7for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began...”

Timothy is to testify without shame and to share in suffering for the Gospel. God has saved us by His power, and called us to a holy calling - to be conformed to Christ. And this has always been his purpose. He has ALWAYS planned for believers to be conformed to Christ!

This does not mean we are saved before faith. As boatbums points out,

“5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or “’Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”

Notice the sequence:

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,

you will be saved.

10For with the heart one believes

and is justified,

and with the mouth one confesses

and is saved.”

It is an IF / THEN statement. And one believes and is justified. And one confesses and is saved.

This is contrary to what you are teaching.


1,565 posted on 12/17/2009 10:30:10 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
10For with the heart one believes and is justified

Amen. Do all men have a heart of flesh to believe or are some men left with their hearts of stone and therefore are unable to believe?

Christ said a man must be born again in order to know the things of God. And regeneration by the Holy Spirit is God's prerogative; not men's.

Arminianism is truly the road back to Rome - salvation by men's own effort and not God's predetermined purpose. A real pity some Christians don't avail themselves of that blessed comfort.

1,566 posted on 12/17/2009 11:42:17 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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