| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 11/07/2009 2:30:07 PM PST by Admin Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior. |
Posted on 10/26/2009 4:16:56 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
A few years ago, I slipped into the back of a large Methodist church in the area to hear a sermon delivered by the pastor which had been advertised for several days on the marquee on the lawn in front of the handsome Neo-Gothic stone edifice. I really wanted to hear what he had to say on that particular Sunday.
The occasion of this sermon was what Protestants celebrate as "Reformation Sunday," in remembrance of the sad, tragic rebellion against the Catholic Church. Of course, that's my take on what Reformation Sunday symbolizes. The pastor whose sermon I heard that day had a much different view. . . .
(Excerpt) Read more at patrickmadrid.blogspot.com ...
But it set many of the captives free...
I can see why: “Be a sinner and sin boldly!” “Let your sins be strong!” “Sin bravely!”
Luther's concept that salvation is assured even should we commit fornication or murder, thousands and thousands of times a day, is a flawed one. But I can understand why it is enticing to those who desire a limo ride to salvation instead of working it out with fear and trembling.
Exactly. The One True Church is the entire Body of Christ, no denominations, just believers.
Amen.
LOL. I agree.
You may believe it, but it's contrary to Scripture.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
I agree, it’s ALL of that. Most charismatic churches would agree with you. We, in our church, value our relationships with one another and with other churches. We believe in the gifts of the Spirit as well. The Holy Spirit is welcome in our worship.
The earliest attempt to create an English language Bible that I am aware of was by the Venerable Bede - Historian and Doctor of the Church, born 672 or 673; died 735. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02384a.htm
“Bede’s exegetical writings both in his own idea and in that of his contemporaries stood supreme in importance among his works, but the list is long and cannot fully be given here. They included a commentary upon the Pentateuch as a whole as well as on selected portions, and there are also commentaries on the Books of Kings, Esdras, Tobias, the Canticles, etc. In the New Testament he has certainly interpreted St. Mark, St. Luke, the Acts, the Canonical Epistles, and the Apocalypse.”
The image of heroic Protestant figures battling the evil Romanists is quite romantic, though, isn’t it? Doesn’t matter if it’s true, it’s the seriousness of the charge right?
Show me in scripture where it says to follow the Pope. We are to follow Jesus.
Are you the posting police? Mr. Rogers has every right to post what he feels is the truth here. It makes for interesting reading for those of us who are history deprived in this area.
I’m enjoying your responses. Thank you!
Hooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Even this:
"and that implies a fraternal relationship with all other believers in this world and the next"?
***“we don’t read Paul to exclusion”
It seems to me more concise and accurate to say you don’t read scripture at all...***
Now, now. On the face of it, even if people do not read Scripture on their own, they are presented with Scripture every Mass. The Mass during ordinary time will give an OT first reading; Psalms (normally sung); Paul second reading and then a passage from the Gospels is read (with the congregation standing out of reverence for the word of Jesus). The Church is on a three year cycle, so that every three years, the entire Bible is read to the people. Each reading is normally chosen to be related so that there is the same message from all the books, and then the homily relates them and explains further.
***and why should you, when the real interpretation lies in the Catechism, and not the Scriptures?***
There is a big difference between choosing to read random Scripture (such as the seeming subordination of Jesus during most of the NT) and understanding Scripture. The Church has put the emphasis on the Bible as a whole; we do not elevate Paul above Jesus, for instance and we begin with the Gospels, look at the rest of the NT through their prism and then look at the OT through the New.
That explains a portion of the differences between the Church and the children of the Reformation; another portion is as the result of focussing on different verses, interpreting them differently and emphasizing some over others.
I read somewhere that someone preceded Bede, even. And the account I read of Bede was quite touching, as he tried to finish while dying.
But by 1300, Bede’s translation would have been largely unreadable. And by 1300, Catholic doctrine had developed enough that it had developed right away from the Orthodox. But there were stirrings, at first from those who would correct the Catholic Church - and I believe there were a number of reformers WITHIN the Catholic church, although I won’t reveal my pitiful scholarship by trying to cite them.
Wycliffe was one of the first in western Europe to outright reject the Catholic Church, and to do so based on scripture...OK, on HOPIOS (his own personal interpretation of scripture). However, he had enough confidence in HOPIOS to believe that simply distributing scripture would suffice to win his argument.
We can debate if HOPIOS was correct or not, and we obviously will disagree...but that is open for discussion. That the Bible was not available to the common man in English in 1400, and that the Catholic Church took steps to stop Wycliffe by stopping the distribution of scripture in English, is not.
None of us can sin boldly because the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. It’s not a pleasant process, I can assure you. When you come to Christ, you cannot get away with sinning boldly or any other way. Catholics love to quote Luther, thinking he’s saying we can get away with it. Nope.
“Now, now. On the face of it...”
Yes, I allowed my temper to get the better of me, and I apologize. I should have walked away from the laptop until calmer. I publicly confess that my temper is one of my greatest weaknesses - although not my only one, I fear.
Take in the whole counsel of God, not just a few of your favorite scriptures. We know faith without works is dead. We know we have to do works after we have been regenerated, made new by Christ. HE has prepared those works for us to do. No argument there. FAITH COMES FIRST, always.
Yes, we will have fellowship with all other believers in Heaven.
“I can see why: “Be a sinner and sin boldly!” “Let your sins be strong!” “Sin bravely!”
Here is a selection from Martin Luther:
Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, “Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven.” The result is that, when they hear the Gospel, they stumble and make for themselves with their own powers a concept in their hearts which says, “I believe.” This concept they hold to be true faith. But since it is a human fabrication and thought and not an experience of the heart, it accomplishes nothing, and there follows no improvement.
Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God (cf. John 1). It kills the old Adam, makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. What a living, creative, active powerful thing is faith! It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn’t ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn’t do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn’t know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.
Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God’s grace; it is so certain, that someone would die a thousand times for it. This kind of trust in and knowledge of God’s grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith. Through faith, a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone, suffer everything for the love and praise of God, who has shown him such grace. It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire. Therefore be on guard against your own false ideas and against the chatterers who think they are clever enough to make judgements about faith and good works but who are in reality the biggest fools. Ask God to work faith in you; otherwise you will remain eternally without faith, no matter what you try to do or fabricate.
Now justice is just such a faith. It is called God’s justice or that justice which is valid in God’s sight, because it is God who gives it and reckons it as justice for the sake of Christ our Mediator. It influences a person to give to everyone what he owes him. Through faith a person becomes sinless and eager for God’s commands. Thus he gives God the honor due him and pays him what he owes him. He serves people willingly with the means available to him. In this way he pays everyone his due. Neither nature nor free will nor our own powers can bring about such a justice, for even as no one can give himself faith, so too he cannot remove unbelief. How can he then take away even the smallest sin? Therefore everything which takes place outside faith or in unbelief is lie, hypocrisy and sin (Romans 14), no matter how smoothly it may seem to go.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.