A Protestant Minister's Unusual Sermon on Reformation Sunday

Patrick Madrid ^ | 10/26/2009 | Patrick Madrid

[Patrick Madrid]

A few years ago, I slipped into the back of a large Methodist church in the area to hear a sermon delivered by the pastor which had been advertised for several days on the marquee on the lawn in front of the handsome Neo-Gothic stone edifice. I really wanted to hear what he had to say on that particular Sunday.

The occasion of this sermon was what Protestants celebrate as "Reformation Sunday," in remembrance of the sad, tragic rebellion against the Catholic Church. Of course, that's my take on what Reformation Sunday symbolizes. The pastor whose sermon I heard that day had a much different view. . . .

[Marie2]

I don’t know much about the RCs official confession. I am glad to hear they have done it. Honestly, I don’t hold the present RC church much guilty for the murders during the Reformation.

As for you question, what have you done? I will confess I do not know. Is there some sin(s) the Reformers committed during the Reformation period that need be repented of? I mean as an official church movement or action, not the occasional bad individual. I would not hold RCs responsible for the evils of the occasional bad Catholic who was not endorsed/supported by the church in whatever bad they did.

James 2:10, “Faith without works is dead.” Amen. But the works don’t save you, still. They are the evidence of your salvation, not the cause.

Ephesians 2:10 I did not leave out in any intentional way. I just quoted 2:9 because it is so nice and succinct. Anyway, “we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Again, amen.

I don’t know that I make myself clear. Just because we are not SAVED by our works, that doesn’t mean we aren’t supposed to be doing good works, all the time. It just means that we don’t believe that it saves us.

I am all for good works! Just not as a basis of salvation. I can’t do enough good works to save myself.

[Marie2]

Oh also, to address your comment, I know I was quoting a Protestant’s sermon, but its point was that it was endorsed by the poster, if you read the link and blog. It is an endorsement of RC doctrines. It was being trumpeted as a good and right statement, in other words.

[Marie2]

I did read the Hauerwas sermon. I do agree with the idea that we must not find ourselves in the position of the proverbial “tax collector.” I don’t think everything the RC church has done, said or believed is wrong. I don’t believe everything every Protestant has ever done, said or believed is right.

I just think the Reformation was a great moment in church history, and was stating that, in response to the post, which seems to be saying it was a terrible thing.

[Marie2]

“oddly enuff, we all see james touting works, in addition to faith, and nowhere do we see anyone in the bible touting faith alone, grace alone, scripture alone...oddly enough, all three are basic tenents of the protestant churches.

I won’t fill the thread with verse after verse, just give one for each objection:

faith alone: “Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” Gal 2:24

grace alone: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Eph 2:8-9

scripture alone: “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Rev 22:18-19

There are so very many verses and examples to support all three of the above tenets.

[Marie2]

“how as anyone ‘returned’ go God when most protestant churches cant agree with each other on matters of salvation, etc?

how is this any sort of unity?”

I think that inasmuch as any of us are obedient to Jesus and His word, we are unified. And inasmuch as we rebel against Him and His word, we are disunified.

So, I believe I have some unity with Roman Catholic folks, for example, in the many years I have spent in the pro-life movement. Some of the most faithful picketers, counselors, donors, and speakers have been RC in my circle. We are really unified on this issue/ministry, and I think it is because we have a truly biblical position.

I am always seeking to find common ground based on Scripture with everybody.

[Mr Rogers]

Given the number of folks burned for reading scriptures in their own tongue, I’m not surprised there is rejoicing at the Reformation...or better called, Restoration.

After all, the Orthodox had cut loose the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years earlier.

And while it is sad to see a church slip into apostasy, it is glorious that not all follow!

[Mr Rogers]

“And before you do that, quote Ephesians 2:10. You know it comes right after Ephesians 2:9. “

Correct. Those born again do not live in the flesh any longer...but it is the New Birth that saves them, not the merit of good deeds done later. Hence justification is PAST TENSE (PT) in Ephesians 2:

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive [PT]together with Christ— by grace you have been saved [PT]— 6and raised us up [PT] with him and seated us [PT] with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved [PT] through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk [FT] in them.”

[Patrick Madrid]

Indeed, the Protestant Reformation was a terrible thing. Sad but true.

[Rose Commander]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with your last paragraph. While it is true we need grace for salvation, we are, in the end, judge by works, "...And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what THEY HAD DONE (emphasize added)" (Revelation 20:12 RSV). Also, St. James added, "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead" (St. James 2:26 RSV) Grace by Faith and Works is the way to Salvation. After all, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount was all about action, He told us to build our houses (faith) on the rock (works) so that the house will not fall when "the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house (all tribulations)" (St. Matthew 7:25 (24-27) RSV). Besides, we Catholics never in 2000 years had we been taught that works is the way to salvation, instead we were taught that we are saved by Grace through Faith and Works, not by Grace through Faith Alone.

[Iscool]

Dr. Hauerwas (the Methodist Dr. Hauerwas) is on his own there. If I agree with him, I wouldn't put it that way.

Yes...Plus he pretty vague on what he means by this statement...

To be saved requires our being made part of a people separated from the world so that we can be united in spite of — or perhaps better, because of — the world’s fragmentation and divisions.

Unity doesn't get anyone saved...Jesus gets folks saved...

[Iscool]

Christ wants us to be one community, not a gaggle of individuals.

Jesus Christ wants us to be saved...And if we are saved, we are in unity...

[Iscool]

Besides, we Catholics never in 2000 years had we been taught that works is the way to salvation, instead we were taught that we are saved by Grace through Faith and Works, not by Grace through Faith Alone.

Then you and many other folks have a dilemma...

You absolutely know that in Ephesians, as was posted here twice, that Faith and Faith only saves you, without works...And you have other scriptures that tell you that works is required along with Faith to save you...

You can't just throw one in the trash and pick the one you like...You're stuck with both of them...

[Judith Anne]

You absolutely know that in Ephesians, as was posted here twice, that Faith and Faith only saves you, without works...And you have other scriptures that tell you that works is required along with Faith to save you...

Once again, the Sola Scriptura error.

[Judith Anne]

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Remember the passage about the greatest commandment? Christ told us: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and might, and the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Arrogance, unkindness, criticism, legalism, pinch-penny definitions, squeezing scripture into tortured constructs—those things have nothing to do with loving your neighbor. They DO indicate a lack of grace (with which all are afflicted) and a need for some common kindness and courtesy, which are first steps on the road to Christian love.

Christ was quite clear: “Judge not, lest ye be judged. For by whatever measure you mete out, the same shall be given to you.” “Forgive us our trespasses, as (the same way) we forgive those who tresspass against us” “As you would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.”

So, do you think it’s going to be just you and Christ alone in heaven? What if you’ve made a few theological mistakes, and it’s you, Christ, and your worst Catholic enemy, and Christ wants you to make peace? Are you going to start off eternity telling Christ how wrong your Catholic enemy is, the way you do here?

Of course, if you’re sure you’re right....

[Iscool]

So, do you think it’s going to be just you and Christ alone in heaven? What if you’ve made a few theological mistakes, and it’s you, Christ, and your worst Catholic enemy, and Christ wants you to make peace? Are you going to start off eternity telling Christ how wrong your Catholic enemy is, the way you do here?

I don't hate or even dislike any Catholics...I figure most of them are going to HEll on the road of good intentions and I'm trying to get them to wise up to the words of God...

Arrogance, unkindness, criticism, legalism, pinch-penny definitions, squeezing scripture into tortured constructs—those things have nothing to do with loving your neighbor.

No doubt you guys are hard nuts to crack...But then consider all the brainwashing you have to go thru to get into your club (Church)...

[Cronos]

we see it as the start of a falling-away from God, not a rebellion. You had the first generation groups like the various initial German princelings who set up their own Lutheran groups. Then second-generation congregational groups like the Presbyterians and congregationalists took it one step further and alarmed the first generation German princes who wanted their own churches that they could control (control the finances and also ensure that the serfs were beholden to the state, body AND soul)

Then the third generation of the splits being the methodists, mennonites, amish, etc. all trying out various choices.

Then the fourth generation got increasingly weird like the Christian scientists, the Jehovah's witnesses, the Unitarians, etc and the fifth could be stuff like the Branch Davidians,Mormons etc., all completely deviant from Christianity.

That's what we see despairingly. While there are many good people who call themselve Protestant, the bent of the idea that you can split over not liking your pastor, inevitably leads to JWs, Gene Robin etc.

[Judith Anne]

Who is your neighbor, whom Christ commands you to love as yourself?

Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan? Who was the injured man’s REAL neighbor?

May your day be blessed with the joy of Christ.

[ArrogantBustard]

It’s somewhat like deploring the winning of the Revolutionary War, to me

Hmmm ... to me it's like deploring the outcome of the October Revolution.

[ArrogantBustard]

A salient point from Dr. Hauerwas' sermon:

In contrast, Catholics do not begin with the question of “How much do we need to believe?” but with the attitude “Look at all the wonderful stuff we get to believe!”

He gets it. The Protestant apologetic on this forum has always struck me as minimalist; that Protestants seek to know the absolute minimum required for salvation. They seem to me to obsess over that minimum, and never to look beyond it.

This impression, on my part, is based on almost 10 years of reading Protestant apologetics on this forum.

OTOH, the Catholic attitude with which I grew up, and which I still see in many Catholic parishes, is expansive. "Maximalist", if that's a word. Look at all the wonderful spiritual gifts The Lord has given us, the wonderful friends with which He has surrounded us.

Protestants, particularly of the Evangelical bent, speak often of a "personal relationship with Christ". And that's fine, in so far as it goes.

It's just not the whole story.

It seems to me that Christ wishes to have a familial relationship with Him, His Father, and His Holy Spirit ... and that implies a fraternal relationship with all other believers in this world and the next.

It's not just me-n-Jesus. It's me-n-Jesus and the Father and The Holy Spirit and all the Choirs of Angels and the whole communion of saints at the Wedding Feast of The Lamb. Hurrah!

[Dutchboy88]

Beware of telling folks what they know or think. But, it doesn’t matter what they symbolize...it is that Rome has all of these trappings, rather than Christ, alone. And, it denies that Paul teaches salvation by grace through faith, alone.

But, Rome persists with this practice of humanizing everything. Man is at the center of their theology. Or should we call it their anthropology?

The Bible, on the other hand, is God’s intended communication to us. There is no “symbol” about it. But, if that is what Rome has taught you...to wit.