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Childish behavior. |
Posted on 10/26/2009 4:16:56 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
A few years ago, I slipped into the back of a large Methodist church in the area to hear a sermon delivered by the pastor which had been advertised for several days on the marquee on the lawn in front of the handsome Neo-Gothic stone edifice. I really wanted to hear what he had to say on that particular Sunday.
The occasion of this sermon was what Protestants celebrate as "Reformation Sunday," in remembrance of the sad, tragic rebellion against the Catholic Church. Of course, that's my take on what Reformation Sunday symbolizes. The pastor whose sermon I heard that day had a much different view. . . .
(Excerpt) Read more at patrickmadrid.blogspot.com ...
Tyndale's translations were made directly from the originals and had help from the Erasmus's 1516 Greek-Latin NT and also from the best Hebrew texts.
I will have to get into my genealogy file but some ancestors were also burned at the stake for believing in the Bible.
Amen.
Very well stated.
We have to ask for forgiveness if we commit a sin that is against God’s teachings. Why is that so hard to understand?
The moveable type press was not invented until 1450. The first Gutenberg Bible was not published until 1455. The cost for one copy of that Bible was 30 florins (about 3 years wages for the typical literate person)...but this was better than the cost for a handwritten manuscript (months to make and the cost would be that of an average family farm).
I think a more likely explanation would be that printed works, including the Bible, were hugely expensive and essentially irreplaceable.
But you go on and believe what you want. Not for me to let facts get in your way.
I was going to reply to your post 160, but I already did.
Post 78,
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2371453/posts?page=78#78
I’ll let anyone who wishes read your post 160, and my post 78, and decide for themselves why those strange Englishmen insisted on risking their lives to get copies of Wycliffe’s, and later Tyndale’s, translations.
They can decide for themselves why More spent all that time attacking Tyndale rather than getting a good translation out.
And I’ll leave you and them with the words of William Tyndale, writing 8 years before he was strangled and his body burned at the stake:
Comfort to Persecuted Bible Readers . . .
Excerpts from William Tyndale’s Introduction to
The Obedience of a Christian Man - 2nd October 1528
Let it not make thee despair, neither yet discourage thee, O reader, that it is forbidden thee in pain of life and goods, or that it is made breaking of the king’s peace, or treason unto his highness, to read the Word of thy soul’s health; … for if God be on our side, what matter maketh it who be against us, be they bishops, cardinals, popes …
Five Objections: Answered
1. They tell you that Scripture ought not to be in the mother tongue, but that is only because they fear the light, and desire to lead you blindfold and in captivity…
2. They say that Scripture needs a pure and quiet mind, and that laymen are too cumbered with worldly business to understand it. This weapon strikes themselves: for who is so tangled with worldly matters as the prelates?
3. They say that laymen would interpret it each after his own way. Why then do the curates not teach the people the right way? The Scripture would be a basis for such teaching and a test of it. At present their lives and their teaching are so contrary that the people do not believe them, even when they preach truth…
4. They say our tongue is too rude. It is not so. Greek and Hebrew go more easily into English than into Latin. Has not God made the English tongue as well as others? They suffer you to read in English of Robin Hood, Bevis of Hampton, Hercules, Troilus, and a thousand ribald or filthy tales. It is only the Scripture that is forbidden. It is therefore clearer than the sun that this forbiddal is not “for love of your souls, which they care for as the fox doth for the geese.”
5. They say we need doctors to interpret Scripture [because] it is so hard… There are errors even in Origen and Augustine; how can we test them save by the Scripture?… We do not wish to abolish teaching and to make every man his own master, but if the curates will not teach the gospel, the layman must have the Scripture, and read it for himself, taking God for his teacher.
Lest we forget.:o)
No error, no picking and choosing. Works is a consequence of faith; no works, there wasn’t faith. Like turning on the lightbulb in a dark room: if no light follows, either the switch wasn’t turned on or the bulb is dead.
Sola Scriptura holds. It may surprise some that it is the human interpretation thereof that may be flawed.
They will say haply, the scripture requireth a pure mind and a quiet mind; and therefore the lay-man, because he is altogether cumbered with worldly business, cannot understand them. If that be the cause, then it is a plain case that our prelates understand not the scriptures themselves: for no layman is so tangled with worldly business as they are. The great things of the world are ministered by them; neither do the lay-people any great thing, but at their assignment. ‘If the scripture were in the mother tongue,’ they will say, ‘then would the lay-people understand it, every man after his own ways.’ Wherefore serveth the curate, but to teach him the right way? Wherefore were the holy days made, but that the people should come and learn? Are ye not abominable schoolmasters, in that ye take so great wages, if ye will not teach? If ye would teach, how could ye do it so well, and with so great profit, as when the lay-people have the scripture before them in their mother tongue? For then should they see, by the order of the text, whether thou jugglest or not: and then would they believe it, because it is the scripture of God, though thy living be never so abominable. Where now, because your living and your preaching are so contrary, and because they grope out in every sermon your open and manifest lies, and smell your unsatiable covetousness, they believe you not when you preach truth. But, alas! the curates themselves (for the most part) wot no more what the new or old Testament meaneth, than do the Turks: neither know they of any more than that they read at mass, matins, and evensong, which yet they understand not: neither care they, but even to mumble up so much every day, as the pie and popinjay speak, they wot not what, to fill their bellies withal. If they will not let the lay-man have the word of God in his mother tongue, yet let the priests have it; which for a great part of them do understand no Latin at all, but sing, and say, and patter all day, with the lips only, that which the heart understandeth not.
Christ commandeth to search the scriptures. John 5. Though that miracles bare record unto his doctrine, yet desired he no faith to be given either to his doctrine, or to his miracles, without record of the scripture.
When Paul preached, Acts 17 the other searched the scriptures daily, whether they were as he alleged them. Why shall not I likewise see, whether it be the scripture that thou allegest? Yea, why shall I not see the scripture, and the circumstances, and what goeth before and after; that I may know whether thine interpretation be the right sense, or whether thou jugglest, and drawest the scripture violently unto thy carnal and fleshly purpose; or whether thou be about to teach me, or to deceive me?
— William Tyndale, “The Obedience of a Christen man”
Available free online (just found it a few minutes ago) at:
http://www.godrules.net/library/tyndale/19tyndale7.htm
***The more I read of the details of Orthodox Presbyterian Calvinism, the more I see the devil’s hand.***
As well as other portions of his anatomy.
God is that only which he testifieth of himself; and to imagine any other thing of God than that, is damnable idolatry. Therefore saith the hundred and eighteenth psalm, “Happy are they which search the testimonies of the Lord;” that is to say, that which God testifieth and witnesseth unto us.
But how shall I that do, when ye will not let me have his testimonies, or witnesses, in a tongue which I understand? Will ye resist God? Will ye forbid him to give his Spirit unto the lay as well as unto you? Hath he not made the English tongue? Why forbid ye him to speak in the English tongue then, as well as in the Latin?
Finally, that this threatening and forbidding the lay people to read the scripture is not for the love of your souls (which they care for as the fox doth for the geese), is evident, and clearer than the sun; inasmuch as they permit and suffer you to read Robin Hood, and Bevis of Hampton, Hercules, Hector and Troilus, with a thousand histories and fables of love and wantonness, and of ribaldry, as filthy as heart can think, to corrupt the minds of youth withal, clean contrary to the doctrine of Christ and of his apostles...Now seeing they permit you freely to read those things which corrupt your minds and rob you of the kingdom of God and Christ, and bring the wrath of God upon you, how is this forbidding for love of your souls?
William Tyndale
And he wrote this, which I think you will enjoy:
That thou mightest feel the working of the Spirit of God in thee, and lest the beauty of the deed should deceive thee, and make thee think that the law of God, which is spiritual, were content and fulfilled with the outward and bodily deed, it followeth: “Owe nothing to any man, but to love one another: for he that loveth another fulfilleth the law. For these commandments, Thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not desire, and so forth, if there be any other commandment, are all comprehended or contained in this saying, Love thy neighbour: therefore is love the fulfilling of the law.” Here hast thou sufficient against all the sophisters, work-holy, and justifiers, in the world; which so magnify their deeds. The law is spiritual, and requireth the heart; and is never fulfilled with the deed, in the sight of God. With the deed thou fulfillest the law before the world, and livest thereby; that is, thou enjoyest this present life, and avoidest the wrath and vengeance, the death and punishment, which the law threateneth to them that break it. But before God thou keepest the law if thou love only.
Now what shall make us love? Verily, that shall faith do. If thou behold how much God loveth thee in Christ, and from what vengeance he hath delivered thee for his sake, and of what kingdom he hath made thee heir; then shalt thou see cause enough to love thy very enemy without respect of reward, either in this life or in the life to come, but because that God will so have it, and Christ hath deserved it: yet thou shouldest feel in thine heart that all thy deeds to come are abundantly recompensed already in Christ.
***I place it here to make the point that it really does not matter how many there are.***
What matters is that there are many and many more each day; each diverging more and more from Christianity.
***We are not enslaved to the doctrines of demons in Rome, the Vatican or the Catholic Church (whatever it calls itself now) that are clearly in conflict with the obvious teaching of the Scriptures.***
Since there aren’t any doctrines of demons in the Church and none of the Church’s doctrines is in conflict with Scripture, neither is anyone else. Besides, how would you know if a doctrine was in conflict with Scripture?
I would find that verse ever so much easier if it read, “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have anger for one another.”
Oh well. I guess I need to read what he said, not what I would like...
***The Catholics in power did not want the common man to have personal copies of the Bible. William Tyndale was betrayed by a friend by the name of Philips. He had a fake trial and was convicted. His last words before being burned at the stake were, “Lord, open the King of England’s eyes”. ***
Henry Tudor was the head of his own church by then and was angry at Tyndale for publishing a personally embarrassing book and for publically calling for Henry to not be divorced. Henry and the new Anglican powers did not want English bibles to be readily available.
Phillips was a paid agent of Henry.
Tyndale was killed by Henry VIII.
Actually, as I think we have discussed before, Henry was mildly supportive of Tyndale at the time of his arrest, due to the influence of Queen Anne. A letter was sent in his name to support mercy for Tyndale, but it wasn’t well received on the continent, which knew full well that Henry had no problem with burning heretics, including those from Belgium.
I suspect Henry was more concerned along the lines of James after him, who saw weakening of church power as ultimately weakening his own. But who he supported varied from day to day, it seems. He killed Thomas More before Tyndale died, and Tyndale died for heresy under Charles V, not Henry VIII.
Tyndale wasn’t under Henry VIII’s jurisdiction.
Henry VIII killed Tyndale.
Well, we do know that this type of “food” is well stocked by Rome.
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