Joseph Smith—Prophet of the Restoration - Mormon (OPEN)

LDS.org Gospel Library ^ | October 8, 2009

[Normandy]

In order to commit the unpardonable sin you must have a perfect knowledge of the truth against which you sin:

“All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

The King Follett Sermon

By Joseph Smith, Jr.

Just leaving the LDS church does not put a person in this category.

[SZonian]

Obviously there is a contradiction between what one man says and what the church is teaching through the D&C studyguide.

If it’s still being taught, it is church doctrine.

[Godzilla]

Need to examine more closely normand- He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, . . . . .

Doesn't this discribe the conversion process to mormonism?

and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him.

Therefore, the act of leaving the mormon church is a rejection of that "Holy Ghost" ie sin against him

deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it;

An ex-mormon denies the mormon plan of salvation

and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Smith makes it clear - those who leave the mormon church are placed in this category.

For use within later years -

“I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath [sic] my bowie knife, and conquer or die [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.]. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet [Voices, generally, ‘go it, go it.’]. If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up.]. Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 83

“Any man or woman who has heard the Gospel and rejected it – not only those in the days of Noah, but any man or woman in this day who has had a good chance to receive and embrace the Gospel and enjoy its blessings and privileges, but who has been indifferent to these things, ignoring and neglecting them – such a person need not hope or anticipate that when he is dead the work can be done for him and he can gain celestial glory. Don’t you Latter-day Saints get the notion that a man can live in defiance or total indifference, having had a good chance – not just a casual chance or opportunity – to accept the Gospel and that when he dies you can go and do the work for him and have him receive every blessing that the faithful ones are entitled to.”
- Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, Crusader for Righteousness, p. 221

These two examples clarify the teaching and logical end of smith's comments in the follett sermon.

[ejonesie22]

Just leaving the LDS church does not put a person in this category.,/p>

If, as is claimed by the LDS and it's prophets, that the LDS Church is the one true church, sole keeper of priesthood authority and all others claiming the name of Christ are an abomination as Smith has clearly told you, how could it not?

[SZonian]

"If any people on earth are capable of committing the unpardonable sin, you will find them among those who have, or will, come to a knowledge of the truth. … You and I have received the light. We have received the Holy Priesthood. We have received the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and have been brought from death unto life. Therefore, we are now on very safe or on dangerous ground,—dangerous if we are trifling with these sacred things that have been committed to our care. Hence I warn you, my brethren and sisters, especially my brethren, against trifling with your [priesthood]. … If you do, as God lives He will withdraw His Spirit from you, and the time will come when you will be found kicking against the light and knowledge which you have received, and you may become sons of perdition. Therefore, you had better beware lest the second death shall be passed upon you."

The King Follett Sermon

By Joseph Smith, Jr.

What this tells us is that if you were a priesthood holder and become an apostate you're doomed. I can get no other interpretation from this statement.

[T Minus Four]

perhaps gloating?

[SZonian]

"If any people on earth are capable of committing the unpardonable sin, you will find them among those who have, or will, come to a knowledge of the truth. … You and I have received the light. We have received the Holy Priesthood. We have received the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and have been brought from death unto life. Therefore, we are now on very safe or on dangerous ground,—dangerous if we are trifling with these sacred things that have been committed to our care. Hence I warn you, my brethren and sisters, especially my brethren, against trifling with your [priesthood]. … If you do, as God lives He will withdraw His Spirit from you, and the time will come when you will be found kicking against the light and knowledge which you have received, and you may become sons of perdition. Therefore, you had better beware lest the second death shall be passed upon you."

The King Follett Sermon

By Joseph Smith, Jr.

What this tells us is that if you were a priesthood holder and become an apostate you're doomed. I can get no other interpretation from this statement.

[colorcountry]

That is certainly not LDS doctrine.

Can you give us a definition for "Sons of Perdition" in LDS doctrine and tell us what their fate will be?

[Normandy]

Remember, according to LDS doctrine, all souls will eventually receive a degree of salvation (either a lesser or greater degree) except for those who commit the unpardonable sin.

This is in agreement with what Jesus taught when he said:

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew 12

[Normandy]

Here is a scriptural definition (from Doctrine and Covenants section 76)

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

[reaganaut]

He must receive the Holy Ghost, (given after baptism)

He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; (have a testimony)

and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; (deny the LDS gospel)

This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Just leaving the LDS church does not put a person in this category.

- - - - - - - -
So I suppose there are a few who leave that never had a testimony, but the other two are pretty much automatic for apostates.

[reaganaut]

i hadn’t thought of gloating. I suppose that is possible.

[Colofornian]

Remember, according to LDS doctrine, all souls will eventually receive a degree of salvation (either a lesser or greater degree)

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29)

(Only in Mormonism is a "BODILY resurrection of damnation" -- as proclaimed by Jesus Christ -- a "degree of salvation." Might as well tell all the missionaries to just "stay home" -- you're damned/saved, anyway...and it all means the same thing to the Mormon!)

[colorcountry]

Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

Well, that is pretty much what Szonian said and that you denied, but whatever.....

[ejonesie22]

Which still begs the question....

[T Minus Four]

For Christians, we understand that the “unpardonable sin” is to not trust in the Lord God Jesus for our salvation, knowing that we cannot do anything to save ourselves.

If we don’t believe it, we don’t DO it, so we are not saved and we are doomed to hell.

That’s why we are so frightened for those who believe that they can join a religion and follow it and go to heaven, rather than throwing ourselves at Jesus feet, admit we are filthy sinners,turn from our sins, and give our will over to Him. The ONLY way to salvation.

[Elsie]

So simple when you understand the "true Gospel"!

You think you know so much - just WHERE in the Book of Mormon do we READ this stuff?

--MormonInvestigator(I wanna know!!)

[Elsie]

but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come

There goes that...

"...I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be...

[Elsie]

So you are saying that marriages sealed here on earth continue forever, but after that, no new marriages happen?

HMMmmm...

Celebate offspring - who knew!

[Elsie]

The answer is found in the ...and so forth... clauses in the Articles of Faith.