What is it about?Posted on 09/24/2009 12:31:05 PM PDT by NYer
A storm is about to be unleashed on the Pope, the Vatican, and, by extension, the Catholic Church.
The first drops of rain have just fallen, with public accusations that the Pope lied this winter in connection with the "Williamson affair." (see below)
What is it about?
(Here, in better times, Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi greets Pope Benedict XVI in Cagliari on the Italian island of Sardinia in this September 7, 2008, photo -- CNS photo/Reuters)
Here are a few lines from a British newspaper today explaining this story:The background you need to know is that Il Giornale has been engaged in a furious battle with Vatican Radio and the Catholic newspaper Avvenire, whose editor Dino Boffo it forced to resign after claiming he was a homosexual with a police record. Avvenire, not coincidentally, had consistently opposed Berlusconi, with the backing of the Italian Bishops’ Conference.
That struggle, which is part of a left-right, secular-Catholic battle at the heart of Italian society and government, has already damaged relations between the gruesomely oversexed Berlusconi and the Holy Father...
It isn't fully clear.
On September 18, inside Castel Gandolfo, the Pope's summer palace about 30 miles outside Rome, a Russian Orthodox Archbishop named Hilarion Alfeyev (photo), 43 (a scholar, theologian, expert on the liturgy, composer and lover of music), met with Benedict XVI, 82 (also a scholar, theologian, expert on the liturgy and lover of music), for almost two hours, according to informed sources. [resources: Inside the Vatican]
and the holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove
Herein lies the rub, Mark, "in bodily form." God taking the form of an animal/bird is utterly pagan.
Kosta, are you a Roman Catholic? Roman Catholics do not venerate icons. That is an Eastern Orthodox custom. Man was made in God’s image, and although He is pure spirit, we still represent his creation. How else are we to portray him? The image of a dove as the Holy Ghost is taken directly from the New Testament at Pentecost. This argument is as ridiculous as Protestants accusing Catholics of worshipping statues!
And Stfassisi, please show me exactly where in the Second Council of Nicea that images of God the Father are blasphemy. I reviewed it and cannot find your statement supported anywhere.
***Herein lies the rub, Mark, “in bodily form.” God taking the form of an animal/bird is utterly pagan.***
Well, yes, and no.
God took the form of a man aka Jesus Christ when it became apparent that His spiritual form wasn’t good enough to get peoples’ attention. The precedent may have been set quite adequately.
I based what I said from Orthodox Wiki listed below,but I looked through the Seventh Ecumenical Council(2nd council of Nicea)and did not find the wording listed the same from Orthodox Wiki. Perhaps someone can clear this up since wiki sources are not completely accurate sometimes?
Here is the link to the Ecumenical Councils
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_INDEX.HTM
God the Father in iconography- from Orthodox Wiki
http://orthodoxwiki.org/God_the_Father#God_the_Father_in_iconography
Icons depicting God the Father do not conform to the teachings of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. God the Father is invisible and not able to be depicted. Since Christ was born of the indescribable Father, the Father cannot have an image.
But icons such as the Ancient of Days icon depict God the Father as an old man with a white beard, sometimes at the top of other icons. Russian Trinity icons sometimes show Christ and the Father setting on two thrones with a dove between them.
Another icon, that depicts the Father, is the Paternity icon. It also depicts God the Father as an old man with a white beard with the young boy Jesus, sitting on his lap, holding a dove.
No, but I have been called "worse." (just kidding) :)
Latin iconography ended around 14th century AD, so it it very much part of the Catholic practice, although it may be less emphasized than it was up to 600 years ago. There is nothing exclusively Eastern about icons or veneration of icons.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia
The Council states
The final deifnitions have been set by the Seventh Ecumenical Council (aka Second Nicene Council, 8th century) and remain unchanged in both Churches.
As far as making images of God the Father not being allowed, from the Catholic Catechism
Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God...and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27
In other words, only the image of the Son can be made because of his humanity, period. All other paintings of God, whether the Father, the Holy Spirit or the Word in his divinity, are blasphemy.
MarineMomJ, perhaps I should be asking you if you are Catholic?
The Gospel accounts of the Baptism of Jesus differ, so they can not be taken literally, especially Luke. In one, for example, God (or voice form heaven) addresses the audience and in the other addresses directly Jesus; in one there is a dove-like HS descending and in the other there isn't, etc.
More importantly, the Church recognizes only one hypostatic union, that of divine and human, in the miracle of Incarnation. The Church does not teach that the HS is a dove, i.e. that it exists in two essences (or natures).
Obviously the "appearance" is not the same as the essence. The same can be said of the Mount Tabor transfiguration. Visions are often used in the Bible as perceptions but they are not necessarily reality.
Assuming the HS took the form of a dove is pagan, as animal-god concepts are encountered in Egyptian, persian, Hindu and other pagan religions. In that, Luke stands alone. The reason for "dove" is the idea that it is a 'love' bird, that it is a symbol of love, the love that exists between the Father and the Son, but this is not theologically completely true, given the Triniatrian theology of the Church, namely of three co-equal, co-eternal hypostatic realities in one essence (see Seventh Ecumenical Council of 786).
That such iconography exists only shows that even clergy (who allowed it) are not theological experts and that there is subliminal heresy festering in the Church at all times.
Ping
“”1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new “economy” of images:
Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God...and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27””
Thank you,dear Kosta.
Pope John Paul ll addressed some of this as well in this Apostolic letter
DUODECIMUM SAECULUM
TO THE EPISCOPATE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE OCCASION OF THE 1200th ANNIVERSARY
OF THE SECOND COUNCIL OF NICAEA
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19871204_duodecim-saeculum_en.html
In breaking with the authentic tradition of the Church, the iconoclast movement considered the veneration of images as a return to idolatry. Not without contradiction or ambiguity, they forbade representations of Christ and religious images in general but continued to allow profane images, in particular those of the Emperor with the signs of reverence that were attached to them. The basis of the iconoclast argument was of a Christological nature. How was it possible to depict Christ, who unites in his person, without confusing or separating them, the divine nature and the human Nature? To represent his unfathomable divinity would be impossible; to represent him in his humanity would only be to divide him, to separate the divinity and humanity in him. To choose one or the other of these options would lead to the opposed Christological heresies of Monophysitism and Nestorianism. For, in trying to represent Christ in his divinity, one would necessarily have to absorb his humanity; in showing only a human picture, one would hide the fact that he is also God.
9. The dilemma posed by the iconoclasts involved much more than the question of the possibility of Christian art; it called into question the whole Christian vision of the reality of the Incarnation and therefore the relationships of God and the world, grace and nature, in short, the specific character of the “new covenant” that God made with humanity in Jesus Christ. The defenders of images saw it well: according to the Patriarch of Constantinople, Saint Germain, an illustrious victim of the iconoclast heresy, it is “the divine economy according to the flesh”(31) that was being questioned. For, to see represented the human face of the Son of God, “image of the invisible God,” (Col. 1, 15), is to see the Word made flesh (cf. John 1, 14), the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (cf. John 1, 29). Therefore art can represent the form, the effigy of God’s human face and lead the one who contemplates it to the ineffable mystery of God made man for our salvation. Thus Pope Hadrian could write: “By means of a visible face, our spirit will be carried by a spiritual attraction towards the invisible majesty of the divinity through the contemplation of the image where is represented the flesh that the Son of God deigned to take for our salvation. May we thus adore and praise him together while glorifying in spirit this same Redeemer for, as it is written, `God is Spirit,’ and that is why we spiritually adore his divinity.”(32)
Hence, Nicaea II solemnly reaffirmed the traditional distinction between “the true adoration (latreia)” which “according to our faith is rendered to the unique divine nature” and “and the prostration of honor (timetike proskynesis) “which is attributed to icons, for “he who prostrates before the icon does so before the person (hypostasis) who is represented therein.”(33)
Therefore the iconography of Christ involves the whole faith in the reality of the Incarnation and its inexhaustible meaning for the Church and the world. If the Church practices it, it is because she is convinced that the God revealed in Jesus Christ has truly redeemed and sanctified the flesh and the whole sensible world, that is man with his five senses, to allow him to be ever renewed in the image of his creator (cf. Col. 3, 10).
IV.
10. Nicaea II sanctioned the tradition according to which “venerable and holy images, done in color, mosaics and all other appropriate materials, of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ as well as those of Mary Immaculate, the Holy Theotokos, the honorable angels and all holy and pious people are to be exposed in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, on the walls and on the floors, in the houses and in the streets.”(34) The doctrine of this Council has nourished the art of the Church in the West as much as in the East, inspiring works of sublime beauty and depth.
In particular, the Greek and Slav Churches, basing themselves on the works of the iconodulous theologians Saints Nicephorous of Constantinople and Theodore Studite, considered the veneration of icons as an integral part of the liturgy, like the celebration of the Word. Just as the reading of material books allows the hearing of the living word of the Lord, so also the showing of the painted icon allows those who contemplate it to accede to the mystery of salvation by the sense of sight, “What on the one hand is represented by ink and paper is represented on the other hand in the icon, thanks to the various colors and other materials.” (35)
In the West, the Church of Rome distinguished herself by the unbroken continuity of her action in favor of images,(36) especially at the critical moment between 825 and 843, when both the Byzantine and Frankish Empires were hostile to Nicaea II. At the Council of Trent the Catholic Church reaffirmed the traditional doctrine against a new form of iconoclasm that was then manifesting itself. More recently, Vatican II recalled with sobriety the permanent attitude of the Church regarding images (37) and sacred art in general.(38)
11. Over the past several decades we have observed a resurgence of interest in the theology and spirituality of Oriental icons, a sign of the growing need for a spiritual language of authentically Christian art. In this regard, I can only invite my brothers in the episcopate to “maintain firmly the practice of proposing to the faithful the veneration of sacred images in the churches”(39) and to do everything so that more works of truly ecclesial quality may be produced. The believer of today, like the one yesterday, must be helped in his prayer and spiritual life by seeing works that attempt to express the mystery and never hide it. That is why today, as in the past, faith is the necessary inspiration of Church art.
Art for art’s sake, which only refers to the author, without establishing a relationship with the divine world, does not have its place in the Christian concept of the icon. No matter what style is adopted, all sacred art must express the faith and hope of the Church. The tradition of the icon shows that the artist must be conscious of fulfilling a mission of service to the Church.
Authentic Christian art is that which, through sensible perception, gives the intuition that the Lord is present in his Church, that the events of salvation history give meaning and orientation to our life, that the glory that is promised us already transforms our existence. Sacred art must tend to offer us a visual synthesis of all dimensions of our faith. Church art must aim at speaking the language of the Incarnation and, with the elements of matter, express the One who “deigned to dwell in matter and bring about our salvation through matter” according to Saint John Damascene’s beautiful expression.(40)
The rediscovery of the Christian icon will also help in raising the awareness of the urgency of reacting against the depersonalizing and at times degrading effects of the many images that condition our lives in advertisements and the media, for it is an image that turns towards us the look of Another invisible one and gives us access to the reality of the eschatological world.
12. Beloved brothers, In recalling the pertinence of the teaching of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, it seems that we are sent back to our primordial task of evangelization. The growing secularization of society shows that that it is becoming largely estranged from spiritual values, from the mystery of our salvation in Jesus Christ, from the reality of the world to come. Our most authentic tradition, which we share with our Orthodox brethren, teaches us that the language of beauty placed at the service of faith is capable of reaching people’s hearts and making them know from within the One whom we dare to represent in images, Jesus Christ, Son of God made man, “the same yesterday, today and forever” (Heb. 13, 8).
Kosta, I’m more than Catholic, I’m a Traditional Catholic, in fact, a Sedevacantist.
I don’t intend to entertain any backlash from those papists who wish to challenge the Sedevacantist position. So let’s leave it at that.
***God took the form of a man aka Jesus Christ when it became apparent that His spiritual form wasn’t good enough to get peoples’ attention. The precedent may have been set quite adequately
The Gospel accounts of the Baptism of Jesus differ, so they can not be taken literally, especially Luke. In one, for example, God (or voice form heaven) addresses the audience and in the other addresses directly Jesus; in one there is a dove-like HS descending and in the other there isn’t, etc.
More importantly, the Church recognizes only one hypostatic union, that of divine and human, in the miracle of Incarnation. The Church does not teach that the HS is a dove, i.e. that it exists in two essences (or natures).
Obviously the “appearance” is not the same as the essence. The same can be said of the Mount Tabor transfiguration. Visions are often used in the Bible as perceptions but they are not necessarily reality.***
One might have trouble with the definition of reality around the Almighty God anyway.
***Assuming the HS took the form of a dove is pagan, as animal-god concepts are encountered in Egyptian, persian, Hindu and other pagan religions. In that, Luke stands alone. The reason for “dove” is the idea that it is a ‘love’ bird, that it is a symbol of love, the love that exists between the Father and the Son, but this is not theologically completely true, given the Triniatrian theology of the Church, namely of three co-equal, co-eternal hypostatic realities in one essence (see Seventh Ecumenical Council of 786).
That such iconography exists only shows that even clergy (who allowed it) are not theological experts and that there is subliminal heresy festering in the Church at all times.***
But even given that idea, why would such a heresy be allowed to have been propagated, given the rewrites of so much other Scripture? Unless it was not considered heresy for whatever reason.
I don’t submit to the Novus Ordo rhetoric of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”. I studied “The Baltimore Catechism”.
And you’re one to talk, you’re not even Catholic so please keep your non-solicited opinions to yourself.
Discussion over. Have a nice day.
***I’m more than Catholic, I’m a Traditional Catholic, in fact, a Sedevacantist.
I don’t intend to entertain any backlash from those papists who wish to challenge the Sedevacantist position.***
Fascinating. Not only do we have Protestants who create their own churches, we have Protestants who call themselves Catholic and create their own churches. BXVI may well be named a Doctor of the Church by both East and West. Where is your authority?
I am getting a better understanding of your religious views. Your tagline gives credit to the Catholic church for guiding you to Christ, and the statement above is just plain denial of the power of God, as well as a profoundly ignorant understanding of Scriptural Prophecy and history.
It "became apparent" to God before He created everything. You must spend quality time in the Scriptures to know God, my FRiend. You may know the words of your priests, but you display a profound ignorance of His Word. With the help of His Holy Spirit, you won't need YOPIOS. You will have the Mind of God indwelling. Don't believe my words, believe what Jesus had to say about it...
Luke 24 : 44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
*****
John tells us ...
John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 n him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 1 3children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
****
Acts 1 ; 7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
... and since you love Peter so much, he repeats Jesus' promise of the Holy Spirit for our ONLY guidance...:
Acts 2 ; 29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '
36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." .
***God took the form of a man aka Jesus Christ when it became apparent that His spiritual form wasn’t good enough to get peoples’ attention.
I am getting a better understanding of your religious views. ***
They are not mine. They are the Church’s. I follow Christ and His teachings, not a slimy dude with a bad hairpiece.
***Your tagline gives credit to the Catholic church for guiding you to Christ***
It is a quote from St. Augustine.
***and the statement above is just plain denial of the power of God, as well as a profoundly ignorant understanding of Scriptural Prophecy and history.***
My statement that God did not attract the attention of the Jewish people for more than two days at time, so He Incarnated and came to earth among us is absolutely correct. How else do you explain it?
***It “became apparent” to God before He created everything. You must spend quality time in the Scriptures to know God, my FRiend.***
Care to share any of that quality?
***You may know the words of your priests, but you display a profound ignorance of His Word.***
IIRC, you post much more of Paul than you do of Jesus.
***With the help of His Holy Spirit, you won’t need YOPIOS.***
Funny, I was about to say the same thing.
***You will have the Mind of God indwelling.***
The Gnostics were ruled heretic almost 2000 years ago. Strange how some of their beliefs still hang around.
***Don’t believe my words, believe what Jesus had to say about it...
Luke 24 : 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”***
Okay, the bishops of the Church were instructed here. I’m sure that you have a point with your quotes; would you kindly state it?
My point has already been made. The fact that you continue to spout your kneejerk responses tells me I've hit the Mark... your... BS... (no explanation necessary) and NR ... never right!
Quote all the saints you wish. I will quote the Word of God, including Paul, Peter, and all the others who wrote the words.
My statement that God did not attract the attention of the Jewish people for more than two days at time, so He Incarnated and came to earth among us is absolutely correct. How else do you explain it?...
I just laugh at such arrogance and ignorance... and wonder what other misstatements of Scripture you have received from your "guides". It's apparent that there isn't much consideration to the power of God in your permutations...
He is risen, so we can receive His Spirit, indwelling us, (not a priest), to bring us to ALL TRUTH! John 16: 5 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
Romans 6: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
***I’m sure that you have a point with your quotes; would you kindly state it?
My point has already been made.***
Not to the point where we mortals can understand it.
***The fact that you continue to spout your kneejerk responses tells me I’ve hit the Mark... your... BS... (no explanation necessary)***
More potty language? My, you are so very inventive. I applaud your wit and your banter.
***and NR ... never right!***
I’ll bet you spent minutes thinking that one up.
***Quote all the saints you wish. I will quote the Word of God, including Paul, Peter, and all the others who wrote the words. ***
If you would come into the (electric) light, you will realize that the Word of God is Jesus (first verses of John). The others are the words of men. The words of Paul are word of a Catholic bishop to his flock.
***My statement that God did not attract the attention of the Jewish people for more than two days at time, so He Incarnated and came to earth among us is absolutely correct. How else do you explain it?...
I just laugh at such arrogance and ignorance.***
Good for you. No explanation. Just mockery.
***He is risen, so we can receive His Spirit, indwelling us, (not a priest), to bring us to ALL TRUTH!***
From the sounds of things, you are not paying much attention to your guide.
***12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.***
The interesting thing about Protestant thought is that everything that one thinks, feels, believes, posits in whatever frame of mind, whimsy or fancy is justified by appealing to the Holy Spirit’s authority. The thing that puts the lie to this idea is simple: there is only one Truth; there are hundreds of thousands of different beliefs. Therefore you are wrong in supposing that whatever it is that you happen to believe this evening can be blamed upon the Holy Spirit.
Exactly. The Sistine Chapel is a beautiful depiction of Creation, etc.
Unfortunately, certain individuals on here went way off topic and decided to play “Make the Sedevacantist a Pinata”.
Not happening.
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