Replies

CF: Did Joseph Smith in his original pimply-faced "first vision" give us an eternal testimony "explaining why we differ...and why we were wrong" as to what makes ANY of our creeds so putrid to the Mormon god? (No!)

Actually, he Did, He Saw God the Father and the son, at the same time. That takes the grand daddy of all creeds, The Nicene Creed to the Mat and does not let it up. So yeah, He didn't name it by name, but everyone in his day "got it".

CF: Did Smith in that vision give us an eternal testimony "explaining why we differ...and why" as to what makes our believers 100% corrupt -- and Mormons NOT corrupt? (No!)

Yes, he did, God was re-establishing his truth, those who accept are not following corrupted doctrine, those who stay with corrupted doctrine... Again, I think it's pretty clear. Are you just upset that he didn't spell it out for you? Well being offended by God is just dumb in my book. Read the Book of Mormon, Pray about it, and get god's witness, it's a simple formula.

CF: Did Smith in that vision give us an eternal testimony "explaining" where & why Presbyterianism -- which he mentioned by name -- was not "true?" (No!)

Presbyterians, are (correct me if I am wrong on this) Trinitarians. He mentioned them by name because his mom was trying to get him to join. It could have just as easily been Baptist, Lutheran, or Catholics. If it makes you happy and lowers your blood pressure, just put one of their names in there instead, OK? CF: So you hold me -- somebody Mormons regard as an open "apostate" -- tho I was never Lds...to a higher standard than your own founding "prophet?" (Really???)

If you were never a member,t hen you can't be an apostate (Ya gotta read the fine print there)

I am not holding you to any standard but the one you were proposing in your post.

DU: I do not see Jesus as a Celestial Santa Claus, who gives his believers salvation, just because they believed, but because they believed enough to do something about it.

CF: Well, then have a fit with Romans 6:23 (not me): For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nope, no fit, the resurrection is a free gift, Atonement is something you have to keep the commandments for, it's all clear to me, because it's all been explained by the church and confirmed by the Holy Ghost.

CF: Have a fit with Paul & Silas (not me): He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I DO to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." (Acts 16:30-31)

Yep, that's the start, Faith in the lord Jesus Christ, first principle of the Gospel, so?

I could go tit for tat with you on scriptures that say we need faith, Yawn, but that's been done to death.

I'll just skip to the end, if you don't mind:
James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Mormons believe you need Faith and Works. There are places in the Bible that concentrate on faith, places that concentrate on Works, but there are also places that say you need both. Play the Get out of Hell free card all you want, as for me, I'll just do what Jesus commands.

Let me know how that works out for ya, OK?

CF: (If we were to have a careful Bible study together, I could point out all the verses that show that we're not expected to carry out those commandments according to our own wisdom, our own skill, our own energy, our own anything -- That's what the Holy Ghost living in us as a temple is all about -- something that gets short-shrift among Mormons because their "temple focus" is almost all 100% building and 100% ritual)

Um... That's 200%... (Math challenged as well Grin)

You know, I'd actually enjoy a good bible study with you, but it wouldn't be all one sided. As for going with the spirit, LOL! we do that all the time!

CF: Bottom line. When we obey, we don't get the credit or glory. I thought Jesus has already made that crystal clear

I couldn't agree more, we don't deserve any of the things God is prepared to give us, and we will never "deserve" it either.

CF: DU...you and I are mere servants. Unglorified ones at that.

100% agreement on that!

CF: Until He lifts us from this earth and GIVES the 100% gift of glory.

IT is a gift, but one we have to keep commandments to get because That's what Jesus said to do.

CF: Anything we did in this lifetime, as long as wasn't done to audition for godhood & self-glory or done to parade before men, was merely what unworthy servants do.

I cannot agree more (I already agreed 100% and I can do math :-)

CF: Mormons are trained to focus exclusively on worthiness. Jesus wants repentant, self-acknowledge 'unworthy servants.'"

Then I am a really badly trained Mormon, because I keep thinking about repentance, commandments I need to keep, etc. and only some of those are in the temple. CF: Won't you join me, a poor, sinful, unworthy servant?

If you are asking me to join you in sinning, I'll have to decline, I am too good at that already :-), but worshiping Jesus and admitting my unworthy status, I'm way ahead of you, wait, was that pride? Dang! And now I just swore!...

My Dad once said if you don't laugh at yourself, everyone else will. I miss him.

(FYI, He's worse than dead, altzimers) I gotta go my 18mo just stopped playing with the other kids and started pulling at my knee... Daddy time!

Actually, he Did, He Saw God the Father and the son, at the same time. That takes the grand daddy of all creeds, The Nicene Creed to the Mat and does not let it up.

If I read your post right, you think that "at the same time" somehow contradicts the Nicene Creed and the understanding of the Trinity?

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

DU: I do not see Jesus as a Celestial Santa Claus, who gives his believers salvation, just because they believed, but because they believed enough to do something about it.

Me: Well, then have a fit with Romans 6:23 (not me): For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

DU: Nope, no fit, the resurrection is a free gift, Atonement is something you have to keep the commandments for, it's all clear to me, because it's all been explained by the church and confirmed by the Holy Ghost.

Do you normally twist verses like this (Romans 6:23) just to stick to pure Mormon doctrine? Let's hit the rewind button on that portion of our conversation to get you to stick to Scripture instead of openly twisting it. Here, I'll highlight it:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23)

Questions:
Does Rom. 6:23 talk about the "atonement" (No? Then why did you mention it in response?)
Does Rom. 6:23 talk about the "resurrection" (No? Then why did you mention it in response?)
Did you mention these 'cause it was your only way to acknowledge that, yes, Lds think at least one salvation thing from God is a gift?
Were you trying to avoid the complete image of some earth-to-heaven ladder climber?
So let's get back to the "eternal life" mentioned in Romans 6:23. Is that a gift or not? Yes or no?

[And if you still have trouble deciphering what Mormon doctrinaires do with the phrase "eternal life" and how it's defined, here, allow me to cite an official Lds publication, True to the Faith: "Eternal life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where we will live in God's presence & continue as families..." (True to the Faith, 2004 p. 52)]

Simply put, you already knew the Mormon doctrinal formula of "eternal life" = exaltation = celestial kingdom = becoming of godhood, didn't you?

Likewise, you already knew that in the Mormon church's eyes, resurrection DOES NOT = eternal life, didn't you? Here's the proof:

"But resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God. Our sins make us unclean and unfit to dwell in God's presence, and we need His grace to purify and perfect us 'after all we can do'(2 Nephi 25:23)." (True to the Faith, p. 77)

DU, knowing your own sins that "make [you] unclean and unfit to dwell in God's presence" -- have you performed up to the standard of 2 Nephi 25:23? Have you done EVERYTHING you can do relationally, spiritually, emotionally, physically? Everything? Everything?