Posted on 09/20/2009 2:46:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
SNIP
Sharing testimonies is an important part of the Latter-day Saint experience. We bear testimonies in many settings — in the home with family and among friends and associates or in missionary experiences. In Church, one Sunday is set aside every month for the bearing of testimonies during sacrament meetings.
SNIP
In his address at the October 2004 general conference, Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve...said that his experience throughout the Church leads him to worry that too many members' testimonies linger on "I am thankful," and "I love," and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, "I know." As a result, he noted, meetings sometimes lack the testimony-rich, spiritual underpinnings that stir the soul and have meaningful, positive impact on the lives of all those who hear them.
He...counseled, "We need to replace stories, travelogues and lectures with pure testimonies. Those who are entrusted to speak and teach in our meetings need to do so with doctrinal power that will be both heard and felt, lifting the spirits and edifying our people."
SNIP
As we listen to general conference this October, we will hear many bear pure testimony. Numerous times over the years, we have heard President Thomas S. Monson, first as an apostle and now as president of the Church, bear such testimony. May we, as Primary children sing, be inclined to "follow the prophet" in our endeavor to nurture, strengthen and share our testimonies that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us, that Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was the prophet who was raised up to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel...
(Excerpt) Read more at ldschurchnews.com ...
WOW. Always the kidder.
Put our religion to "The Test"
"The Test" is simple, you can't believe what I say, for I may be wrong, you can't believe what Mormon detractors say for again they might be wrong, or lying. So who can we trust? We can trust the Bible, we can trust God, for God is "a God of truth and canst not lie."
The test is contained in First John 4:1-31 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.We are supposed to look for Gods messages by trying the spirits, and we will know which is of God because it will testify of Jesus. I have tried the Spirits to know if they would testify of Jesus and the Book of Mormon, and I have received an answer, yes the Book of Mormon is of God and Jesus is the Christ, my Savior, my Lord, my God. I wish that everyone could have this experience, thus, I offer to all a Free Book of Mormon and if you don't already have one, a Free Bible Too. I invite you to cut through all the yea and nay arguments with a simple prayer, I invite you to come unto Jesus Christ my master. The formula is simple, Get a Book of Mormon, Get a Bible. Read both, pray about both, ask God to testify of Jesus and ask God to reveal errors for what they are, and truth for what it is and listen for God's response. The response should contain a testimony of Jesus, or it may not be from God.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
There may be those who will encourage you not to pray, they will use various methods to do this, I used to list the many scriptures from the Bible that command us to pray, but I am now only going to quote from the Book of Mormon: Second Nephi 32:88 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.The Bible teaches man to Pray, the Book of Mormon teaches men to pray, anyone who teaches something else is not of God.
Friends, brethren, beware of those who teach that God will not answer a sincere prayer from the heart. Seek God. Seek to do good continually, Do good to those who persecute you and despitefully use you. In the end you will in no wise lose your reward for seeking to follow the scriptures.
Amen.
I’m just curious how you ignore this lengthy screed aimed at Godzilla personally? ... Yeah, right.
How do you define God?
Ya just had to do it, didn’t ya ;-)
For example the one you cite:
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Hum...
Of course we know the Mormon faith would never stand for there to be any creed at all. Not very formal and legal as it were.
Articles of faith do sound better....
The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html
Much Better...
Anyone who answers the challenge to "test" the Book of Mormon is warned that if they do, and the results are not what are required by mormons that the BOM is the word of God and Joseph Smith is a true prophet, they should NOT report their result here on FR.
If they do, the likelihood is that they will be accused of being "insincere" and/or not have tested "correctly".
Here is more on this "challenge".
Mormons love to say that they are not trying to convert others to their religion; that the Holy Ghost does that. One need not take their word for the truth of their religion; one can appeal directly to God Himself for His testimony.
They frequently refer people investigating their religion to a promise in the Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:4: "And when ye shall receive these things [the Book of Mormon], I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."
Christians refuting Mormonism sometimes point out that the verse directs one to ask "if these things are not true;" whereas most Mormons have asked, and urge Christians to ask, "if these things are true." However, these are both wordings of the same question, one put negatively, the other positively. There is really no difference, and no ground is won by such trivial objections.
Still, it is appropriate to examine this "promise" to see if it is a valid means for testing the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The Bible directs, "Prove [test, examine] all things; hold fast that which is good," (1 Thess. 5:21). This does not mean that we should do as the Book of Mormon directs. Testing, or examining this promise is not the same as using it. Rather, one must examine it beforehand; one must actually use it only after it has been examined and found good. If the promise is to be examined and found good before it is actually used, there must be some standard external to itself by which it can be examined or evaluated. God has given just such a standard in the Scriptures.
-SNIP-
There is not only no good reason to do as Moroni 10:4 directs, there is very good reason not to do so. Again, either the Book of Mormon is true or it is false. If it is true, certainly doing as it directs would produce the results it promises. If it is false, however, then Moroni 10:4, being part of the book, is likewise false and an invalid means of finding out whether or not the book is true. Relying on its promise and attempting to submit to its terms exerts tremendous pressure on the seeker to prove himself sincere by receiving the promised manifestation, even while it is forcing him to be insincere. He must rely on its promise while insincerely professing not to know yet whether it is reliable. The result is a self-perpetuating spiral of self-deceit. The need for relief from the resulting inner turmoil can easily drag one into still further self-deceit, finding a supernatural manifestation where there is none.
That is not to say no genuinely supernatural manifestations occur. Self-deception brings God's wrath and judgement (Rom. 1:18-19). The person practicing it is abandoned not only to his own delusion but also to deception of another kind (2 Thess. 2:10-11). Asking for revelation from God, while refusing to take as his standard and live by what God had already revealed, is exactly what got King Ahab killed (1 Kings 22:1-40).
That people have actually received supernatural manifestations of one form or another upon following the directions of Moroni 10:4 should surprise no one (Eph. 6:12; 1 Tim. 4:1). To think otherwise is naive. If the Book of Mormon is false, one is just as likely to receive such a manifestation from a demonic source as one would be to receive it from a divine source if the Book of Mormon were true. It must be forcefully asserted then, such manifestations do not prove the Book of Mormon true any more than the miracles wrought by Jannes and Jambres before Moses and Pharaoh proved those magicians were from God.
To sum up, the Book of Mormon cannot be proven by any test of its own devising. It must be tested by the Bible. The teaching of Moroni 10:4 not only lacks any biblical foundation, it is contrary to the Bible's teaching. Moreover, it is a manipulative device which forces insincerity and self-deception, thus opening the door to demonic influence. Far from proving the Book of Mormon true, Moroni 10:4, itself weighed in the balance and found wanting, is sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon false.
I am not MHG, what you arrange with him is between you two. Decorum here is if you mention me by name, you should at least ping me since you are talking specifically about me.
I have not tried to make it personal, I will review my use of pronouns. .
Fine, but you are still 'excusing' Follow the Godzilla link above, the rest of your waffling is just fluff IMHO.
When you then go on to say he needs help, that is not personal too?
I have spoken of my beliefs both of God and of your motivations, but those were my beliefs, not your actual intentions.
Do you mind read to know my motivations or my actual intentions? Didn't think so.
As is hijacking a thread and changing the topic of discussion... care to talk about LDS leaders encouraging members to testify of Jesus? if not, why not?
You were the one who started the polygamy subject. Here. This is not the first time I have pointed that out to you
As is hijacking a thread and changing the topic of discussion... care to talk about LDS leaders encouraging members to testify of Jesus? if not, why not?
This is a puzzling complaint about a thread hijack by the instigator - as proven already above.
You know, in my book forgiveness by a Christian should not include a continuing castigation for the offense, but hey maybe you red the bible differently than I, in fact, I'm sure of it.
There is a difference between conditional and unconditional forgiveness. See Luke 17:3 for the standard.
I believe, according to the Religion Moderator's rules, you are not allowed to tell others what my motives are, and since I have stated them here plainly, you really have no cause to question them.
Before picking apart (again) 1 John 4 and its misapplication, you have every right under the rules to keep recycling that challenge. However, it is equally valid to challenge the fundamental basis of that "test" on the grounds of arguing for or against a belief - which is what you are espousing. And next we will see that the biblical support for your test is flawed.
I believe that my page as posted above addresses this scripture in exactly the way John intended, The Docetic heresy, was only one of many the church was fighting, and John's words were meant, I believe to be an answer to all who search for God's truth and want to separate it from error.
You link to the Docetic heresy is only to a crude definition that is not totally accurate. John was addressing a specific challenge - a form of gnosticism that denied that "Christ" was present in a bodily form. John identified that this belief system was outside of Christianity (as one of the Apostles, he should well know what that definition was). Therefore, Docetism was not a Christian belief, but a heresy as you correctly identified.
How did John intend for the passage to be understood? Context, context and context DU. What was the key heresy of doceticsm? It was a brand of gnosticism that taught the human body, which is matter, is therefore evil. It is to be contrasted with God, who is wholly spirit and therefore good. Thus they tried to deny Jesus' true humanity by saying that it seemed that he was in physical form (Docetism, from the Greek dokeo (“to seem”)). What did John's test specify?
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Lurkers will note that the test is the confession (homologeō) is that Jesus was here in the flesh - a confession (homologeō) that a docetic gnostic would be unable to make.
So is John saying test the book of mormon, or test the homologeō of those "claiming" to be Christians. The passage is pretty straight forward just from the context. This homologeō has nothing to do with the book of mormon (or any other religious book for that matter).
If that wasn't enough, the word "try" (dokimadzo) in verse 1 means to 1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals 2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Now what does this have to do with praying about a religious book? Prayer by itself doesn't accomplish the above. We have our example of this being the Bereans. They anakrinō (searched) the scriptures in a way best presented by Strong's definition-
1) examine or judge
a) to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
- specifically in a forensic sense of a judge to hold an investigation
- to interrogate, examine the accused or witnesses
b) to judge of, estimate, determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing
That goes WAY beyond prayer - and that is the methodology provided by the Bible. The combination of dokimadzo and anakrinō to these new 'teachings'. That is why God called them noble
The lurkers can compare what the Bible says about 'testing' a new doctrine or teaching versus the subjective (and biblically flawed) presentation of mormonism (which is also presented here minus the subjective 'burning bosom' validation every missionary teaches).
GZ: and you (along with millions and millions of others) will come away with the same answer, Joseph smith was a false prophet and the book of Mormon is fiction.
So where exactly do you get the right to tell others what the spirit will tell them?
For starters DU, the above is a statement of fact, millions and millions have rejected mormonism after the 'test' (even many here in FR who have taken the 'test'). Many leave mormonism after they have realized that the 'test' was only emotional manipulation by the missionaries. Were people to apply the true principles laid out in the bible (combination of dokimadzo and anakrinō), even fewer will be fooled by mormonism.
You are telling them what that answer will be.
By the very authority of the Bible the answer is already there. It is their choice to follow a path that leads otherwise.
Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.I like to think of God in one of three ways depending on my mood, yes, it's all about me because you asked my opinion.
God my savior, am again grateful that Jesus agreed to leave his throne on high and come down to earth to save me from my sins. His perfect life sets off mine as an example of what I should be and am not. I am happy to obey any and all commands he gives me because I love him too. How could I reject this man who loved me so much he gave his life for me, I can't, I won't, and I will not let anyone place themselves between me and him, for I will follow him, forsaking all others to do so.
You are either 2/3 rds of the way to the Holy Trinity or you are have hit the minimum requirement for Polytheism.
Given you screed against the Holy Trinity on you home page, well...
Let us just say it's those vivid contradictions that make this so interesting...
And the wonderful rhetoric and circular logic defending it that makes it even better.
Ahhh Delphi, but don’t you also believe this? This is what your organization teaches....from LDS.org
The Church’s first article of faith states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven.
Additional Information
The true doctrine of the Godhead was lost in the apostasy that followed the Savior’s mortal ministry and the deaths of His Apostles. This doctrine began to be restored when 14-year-old Joseph Smith received his First Vision (see Joseph Smith—History 1:17). From the Prophet’s account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22).
Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father’s divine plan of salvation.
See also God the Father; Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ
—See True to the Faith (2004), 73–74
Sincere indeed to engender belief.
Yep. They just can’t come right out and say it can they?
Disturbing...
Typical missionary sales pitch, they recognize that walking up and saying openly that they are polytheists would naturally cause rejection of their message.
Is the correct term ‘practiced deception’?
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