Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
YUP.
GOD ALMIGHTY, KINSMAN REDEEMER, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS . . .
WITH HIS BUDDY ABRAHAM . . . THROUGH TO ISAAC AND JACOB AND DESCENDANTS.
That link, IIRC, is up thread in the last 3-5 screenfuls or pages.
Forgot to ping you to my humor.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105938
Muslim leader meeting with Jewish Temple rebuilding officials.
Oh, forgot the other option for the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al . . . instead of a substantive, logical UNRUBBERIZED BIBLICAL RESPONSE . . .
OR
the cute garbage can gif.
***Naw. Your RUBBERIZED HISTORY doesn’t attract me at all, in the least.***
The only rubber is where it meets the road - the Via of Christ.
***Jesus raised up my congregation ***
I know the early history of the Pentecostals including the belief in magic and occultic mysticism. Jesus preached neither.
***Blessed be the Name of The Lord.***
The problem is that as one travels further and further from the Church, the identification of the Lord becomes more and more difficult.
***At least it’s not so old, fossilized, !!!!TRADITION!!!! bound, ritualized, bureaucratized, politicized, magicstericalized, idolized that Holy Spirit and the anointing left long ago.***
Strange appeal. That’s like saying that I’ll eat this apple instead of that because it only mostly rotten instead of all rotten. However, be that as it may, Jesus promised us His Holy Spirit who would never leave His Church, regardless of Pentecostal claims. How old is your church anyway? Less than a century for sure. Which man started it:?
Methinks . . .
the RUBBER HISTORIES
still have a Vulcan mind meld death grip
on the perceptions of such past centuries . . . particularly re the first 500 after Christ’s dusty pathed days.
WW (Watchman Warning):
ANY overly adoring; overly submissive; overly idolizing
of
ANYTHING OR ANYONE
. . . person, personage, image, object, graduated human, organization, congregation, leader
even ‘merely’ functionally, habitually . . .
MORE THAN CHRIST ALONE
IS
EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS TO ONE’S ETERNAL LIFE.
What in the world would possess someone who claims the name of Christ to allow themselves to be used like that?
Oh well. I guess God was right when He said that we will "know them by their fruits".
As I’ve noted a few times . . .
The only thing that makes sense to this psychologist is . . .
REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDER . . . probably a very serious case of it . . .
mostly unresolved and unhealed . . .
such that a philosophy, an institution, a congregation, a group—particularly A RELIGION . . .
is seized on as a substitute for a dynamic growing RELATIONSHIP with God.
When such a group or ideology becomes paramount to one’s existence; one’s identity, maybe even one’s raison d’etra . . . an atomic bomb would have trouble shaking the person loose . . . throw in some demonic influences and it’s harder . . . and with severe REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDER, I’d guess that demonic influences are virtually always present to a greater or lesser degree.
And, their home relationships are likely not all that robust, balanced, warm, fuzzy, fulfilling, mutually supoortive etc. More likely, they are characterized as conflicted, rife with anger, bitterness, resentment and unforgiveness etc . . . So the hostility is usually not very far below the surface as we’ve seen time and time again on such threads.
In some ways . . . I’m probably a good partial displacement/ relief for such hostility. I’d certainly rather they throw it out at me relentlessly and less of it at their spouses and/or children or even animals.
It’s just the influence on lurkers without practiced good critical thinking skills that concerns me.
GOD ALMIGHTY IS WORTHY TRUST AND BELIEF FOR HE IS UTTERLY TRUSTWORTHY.
ANYTHING to the contrary is from the pit and destructively so. That grieves me.
Thanks for your insightful post.
Blessings to you and yours.
As Christ Himself warned . . . .
Those putting us to death would think they were doing God a service.
For instance I was an Amil theistic evolutionist pew sitter who went to church every Sunday. Now I am a dispensational creationist experiencing a personal “in the now” relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ. I have changed.
***Methinks . . .
the RUBBER HISTORIES
still have a Vulcan mind meld death grip
on the perceptions of such past centuries . . . particularly re the first 500 after Christ’s dusty pathed days.***
Oh, I don’t know. They were a pretty devoted bunch in those days and removed all those such as Origen who wandered off the path; they kept increasingly detailed accounts; remember that this began as a little underground movement. It was surprising that the records were made and kept by the few literate Christians that existed to the extent that they have. Remember that everything was labouriously written out by hand on very expensive parchment with very expensive writing tools. And in Greek, and then Latin, as well.
Hardly a minor undertaking. A nearly impossible one, given the circumstances; yet the fact that they did as well as they did indicates to me that they had help from the Almighty.
***ANY overly adoring; overly submissive; overly idolizing
of
ANYTHING OR ANYONE
...
MORE THAN CHRIST ALONE
IS
EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS TO ONE’S ETERNAL LIFE.***
I believe that we have accord on that. I would extend it the image in many people’s mirrors.
They are working for their salvation. Do you want scripture to back that up or are you talking about something else?"
Post #498 "I thought it was on the basis of works done during the tribulation since trib salvation is different then Salvation on the Works of Jesus"
___________________
Wow, my FRiend. I'm not sure where you arrived at this notion of salvation being different during, or after, the tribulation, but it's very wrong.
Salvation has always been through faith in Messiah's work on the cross. This is true for the saints that lived and believed BEFORE and AFTER Messiah's death and resurrection. This is a foundational truth.
In post #491 you stated that the 144K were working FOR their salvation, and this is a direct conflict to the Scriptures, it is not by works but by faith that one is saved, lest the death of Messiah on the cross be in vain. The works they will be accomplishing during the tribulation period are birthed THROUGH and BY their faith and relationship with Messiah. No one has ever been or will ever be saved by their works, period.
Galatians 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
I’ve always had a hard time with him. He is so negative about different people. It’s hard to listen to him at times.
We’re already in the church that Jesus created. It’s called the Body of Christ.
LOL. Hard to do but not impossible.
It hurts most when he’s deceiving good Christian people.
***We’re already in the church that Jesus created. It’s called the Body of Christ.***
Oh, Mary, you’re such a kidder. That’s probably why I like you as much as I do. How can one claim to be in the Body of Christ when one rejects so many of His commands to us?
I believe that we have accord on that. I would extend it the image in many people’s mirrors.
= = =
OF COURSE!
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