Finding Gog

Rapturealert.com ^ | 09-12-09 | Jack Kelley

[GiovannaNicoletta]

(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)

Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.

In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.

Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.

But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.

As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.

So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.

Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.

The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.

(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)

The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).

Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.

So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.

In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.

Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09

[topcat54]

If you can read these verses (and it took some time to get them all together for you - so please don't just chuck them in your garbage can - and there are many, many more), and still say Israel will not be redeemed by the Lord, you are as closeminded as Quix says. I wont waste my time anymore with someone who only pretends to want truth!

I appreciate your zeal, but you do realize that none of these verses can be connected to modern, unbelieving, secular Israel. You haven’t proved anything by quoting them.

I may appear close-minded to Quixie because I do not swallow the futurist line when it comes to modern Israel. There are many questions about The System® that Quixie simply cannot answer.

I prefer to think for myself, not swallow what the modern futurist prophecy preachers are peddling.

[topcat54]

THE SCRIPTURES about the 144,000 have been posted hereon multiple times.

The Scriptures have been, yes, but nothing that futurist prophecy gurus claim about the one hundred and forty four thousand has been found anywhere in those Scriptures. The claims are hollow until a futurist stands up, does some heavy theological lifting, and connects the dots.

I have already shown; 1) the Scriptures say absolutely nothing about the one hundred and forty four thousand evangelizing Israel during the futurist great tribulation, 2) the one hundred and forty four thousand are actually in heaven with Christ around His throne on Mount Zion, and 3) the Scriptures say nothing about these one hundred and forty four thousand being martyred for the faith. All claims made by our friend boatbums.

So call me when you have something of substance.

The same goes for post 446.

[boatbums]

Thanks for your reply back. I know where you stand now and, like I said, wont bother with responding to you regarding this post. You may think we have swallowed the “Futurist” hook, but the preterist dogma has got you hook, line and planer.

A planer, BTW, is used when trolling for fish behind a moving boat. The hook moves about four feet or so below the surface with bait or just the shiny “spoon” hook attached to the planer, a few swivels and line. No matter how big the catch, the planer trips when hit and drags the fish to the surface where it can be brought in by hand quite easily.

You have been caught by your stubborn unwillingness to consider your church may not get everything right and closed off all other views. Sorry for wasting your time.

[topcat54]

What I would like to see is the white, satanic-European-based “ten nation confederacy” proponents square off against the advocates of a brown, satanic-Islam-based “ten nation confederacy”. See here.

[Religion Moderator]

your stubborn unwillingness

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[topcat54]

Thanks for your reply back. I know where you stand now and, like I said, wont bother with responding to you regarding this post. You may think we have swallowed the “Futurist” hook, but the preterist dogma has got you hook, line and planer.

It doesn’t have anything to do with preterism. It has to do with the fact that you could not back up your assertions from the Bible. I’m sure you want to, and I commend you for that desire. But the execution is lacking.

But I’m sure you are not seeing that. It’s easy to point at the other guy to distract folks from one’s own inabilities.

[topcat54]

I was listening o John MacArthur on Grace to You today (9/22), and I heard him make the same unsubstantiated/unbiblical comments about the alleged activities of the one hundred and forty four thousand during the futurist’s great tribulation. He said,

In that time called Tribulation, God selects 144 thousand Jews, twelve thousand out of every tribe and He knows what tribe they’re in, they don’t, to evangelize the world. They will be converted, they will become evangelists. You can read about them in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14.

It was an almost verbatim recounting of some of the erroneous comments that have been made in this forum. Yes, you can read all about the one hundred and forty four thousand in Revelation 7 and 14, but search hard (as I’m sure you have) and you will find no mention of them evangelizing anything or anyone. It’s a fictional scenario of dispensational futurism. It just plain sounds good to the keepers of The System®. It therefore must be true, and to suggest that it is not true may result in having your faith called into question by the True Believers in All Things Israel®.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I like Johnny Mac. For the most part he is a solid Bible teacher. But it is painfully obvious that when he delves into the area of eschatology, and especially his views on Israel, that the Bible support for some of his (and futurist’s) pet theories gets very thin. Very thin, indeed.

Which only demonstrates than when the best and brightest of futurist dispensationalist preachers has a tough time making his case from the Bible alone, you know the entire system is in trouble, a house of cards waiting to collapse. And when folks in this forum (and other forums) get a little testy when they are pressed on the biblical basis for their ideas, you have to wonder whether it is just all smoke and mirrors.

[Quix]

THANKS.

It's
sooooooooooo
persistently
comforting
when
some
REPLACEMENTARIAN, PRETERIST,
A-MILS, POST-MILS,
run-of-the-mils
PONTIFICATE
THEIR
UTTER BALDERDASH
from their
RUBBER BIBLES.

Though it is very sad
that some lurkers
and others who may not
be particularly thoughtful
or logical themselves
might be taken in and
intellectually, spiritually seduced by satan thereby
into thinking that
AMIGHTY GOD
SIMPLY CANNOT BE TRUSTED
ACCORDING TO SUCH RUBBER BIBLE'd INSANITIES
TO HONOR HIS
EVERLASTING PROMISES
TO JACOB AND HIS OFFSPRING.

One then might mistakenly assume
that ALMIGHTY GOD couldn't be trusted
at all.
And that would be
HORRIFICALLY SAD, INDEED.
. . . as well as . . .
CARRY A STIFF PENALTY FROM GOD
for contributing to such
horrifically idiotic heresy
and the fruit thereof.

[Quix]

It’s easy to point at the other guy to distract folks from one’s own inabilities.

---

Wellllllllllllllll . . . sometimes we have to give ‘honor’ to whom honor is due . . .

and certainly the

REPLACEMENTARIANS, A-MILS, POST-MILS, PRETERISTS HEREON

HAVE AN OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL CLASS CORNER

on that skill and habit.

[Quix]

What I would like to see is the white, satanic-European-based “ten nation confederacy” proponents square off against the advocates of a brown, satanic-Islam-based “ten nation confederacy”.

I don't think that's all THAT complicated.

1. The ruling elite of the globe SIMPLY ARE from the regions of the old Roman Empire. That's simply a fact.

2. I've never been all THAT wedded to the European Union having 10 nations etc. to fulfill that prophecy in that way. Plausible but not certain, imho.

3. These OLD ROMAN EMPIRE ELITES HAVE arranged for the world to be divided up into 10 regions. That fits rather well those prophecies about the 10 kngs.

4. The elites are USING the mooselymbs and jihadi's for their own population reduction and other destructive evil aims . . . just as satan is using the elites . . . evidently with their conscious worship and complicit submissiveness quite deliberate in their involvement.

5. I have wondered post 9/11 if satan and the globalists are going to use the jihadi's to shred the other world's religions wholesale and then morph islam into worshiping satan . . . perhaps first as the last MAHDI . . . Plausible.

6. It is interesting that the influential Turkish Islamic scholar met recently with Jews interested in rebuilding the 3rd Jewish Temple . . . and was quite supportive of that goal . . . asserting that the new complex should include all faiths etc. etc. etc . . . sure sounds like the globalist goal of ONE WORLD RELIGION took another jump with that meeting . . . quite in keeping with END TIMES BIBLE PROPHECY. . . . though we realize that the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al do not have those prophecies in their RUBBER BIBLES . . . or if there are any such verses that escaped being ripped out, then the REPLACEMENTARIANS et a. manage to rationalize them away without too many beers.

[topcat54]

Rim shot ...

[topcat54]

"Which only demonstrates than when the best and brightest of futurist dispensationalist preachers has a tough time making his case from the Bible alone, you know the entire system is in trouble, a house of cards waiting to collapse."

sooooooooooo

And when the dimmest and dullest try it, it gets down right comical.

[Quix]

YEA!

THANKS TONS.

Much appreciated.

When the resident REPLACEMENTARIAN et al pontificators deride one of my posts, I’ve been persistently reminded that I can then count on it being quite Biblically accurate and edifying.

LOL.

Much appreciated.

[Quix]

Yeah, John MCArthur sure comes across as one of the dimmest and dullest to me, too,

when he talks about Holy Spirit’s functioning in our DISPENSATION/era.

He’s not awful on END TIMES STUFF and some other basic doctrines of the faith, however.

I can be even more certain of that when the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al hereon deride him.

[topcat54]

In that time called Tribulation, God selects 144 thousand Jews, twelve thousand out of every tribe and He knows what tribe they’re in, they don’t, to evangelize the world. They will be converted, they will become evangelists. You can read about them in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14.

Do you agree with that? If so, open the Bible and show us why. We're waiting for some futurist to step up to the plate and hit a homer, mighty Casey.

[Quix]

I’ve already commented on that.

Sorry that evidently not all the words were in the REPLACEMENTARIAN rubber dictionary.

[topcat54]

Yeah, John MCArthur sure comes across as one of the dimmest and dullest to me, too

He's the best and brightest you folks have. He's right on with his assessment of the so-called charismatic movement. (Besides, some of its adherents are not very charismatic.)

As for dimmest and dullest, well, I don't want to make it personal.

[topcat54]

I’ve already commented on that.

Perhaps, but you didn't really say anything biblical.

[Quix]

BTW,

Still waiting for the retraction about Damascus being destroyed in 70AD never to be lieved in again . . .

. . . About all nations of the world burdened by Jerusalem and against her in 70AD

. . . About the two witnesses lying in the streets of Jerusalem in 70AD IN FULL VIEW of the WHOLE WORLD

. . . the list could go on and on demonstrating the loonacy of REPLACEMENTARIAN, PRETERIST, A-MIL, POST-MIL ALICE’S RABBIT HOLE PSEUDO-’THEOLOGY.’

[Quix]

It’s been evident for many years hereon

that most

REPLACEMENTARIANS, A-MILS, POST-MILS, PRETERISTS

hereon

would NOT be ABLE to

RECOGNIZE

something Biblical if it bit them hard in their stinking cheekiness.