Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
Don’t hold your breath.
rational discourse consisting of logical exchanges based on solid evidence and thought
seem to be cardinal-sins-to-be-maximally-avoided of the
REPLACMENTARIANS et a.
The bags to zap have a chemical that’s purportedly GREATLY UNHEALTHY, but I forget why.
I pop some dry in a microwave designed container.
Need it dry to help get some of the sinus gunk off the back of my throat. Works pretty well.
Have a blessed night and week.
Back to printing the quiz
INDEED.
Absolutely, but they do not confirm any of your claims. Perhaps you think they do, but there is a whole world of folks that do not share your presuppositions and, no matter how hard we try, we cannot twist them to make them say what you claim they say.
Does that make sense?
It’s their mindset and humans can’t change that, only God can. That’s why we pray.
Not on yer life!
Well, can you tell us specifically which of your views you think are really based on Scripture? Clearly the one about the one hundred and forty four thousand evangelizing Israel is not in the Bible. That's a futurist invention. Also, in Rev. 14 we plainly see them seated in heaven with Christ. And there is nothing in Revelation about them being martyred.
So far you are batting zero.
KEEP PRACTICING THOSE TOSSES.
You MIGHT eventually be able to get the
REPLACEMENTARIAN, Preterist, A-mil, post-mil
garbage where it belongs.
That’s rich.
The REPLACEMENTARIANS, PRETERISTS, A-MILS & POST MILS
haven’t even been able to find the ball park, much less the batter’s position yet. LOL.
I can’t recall in at least the last several years . . . a rational
BIBLE BASED
or even minimally logical reply to my solid Biblical points from any of that troop.
Amazing . . . yet the cheek in demanding something from our side. Amazing.
Finally, a word of truth. I will freely admit that my worldview is not shaped by the Scripture twisting common to futurist dispensationalism. I will freely admit that my mind is captive to Christ and His word, not the teachings of men invented 180 years ago. I will admit that I do not just regurgitate things I read in novels or hear on popular "Christian" TV and radio without fact checking them against the Bible (Acts 17:11). But, sadly, many folks are content to not study God’s word for themselves, but only regurgitate the false things they have been told.
This is obvious, because when you question them about their views, all they can do is spout the futurist party line, or they throw out a few Scriptures that generally make no connection to the discussion at hand. The examples in this thread are legion. A claim is made. A challenge goes out. And several non-answers later they retreat into the amen corner, babbling and bloviating incoherently. Their responses are reduced to vain repetitions suitable only for the garbage.
Well, topcat, I can honestly say that your viewpoint doesn’t make much sense to us either.
As long as you keep feeding trash, it goes right in so smooothly ...
BTW, if you are looking for a change of pace, why don't you help out boatbums figure all the details (biblical ones) of the one hundred and forty four thousand. That should prove challenging.
I wonder why that is? Do you support everything you say, e.g., about Israel, with what is taught in the Bible? Oh, I don't mean casting out verses will-nilly with no rhyme nor reason. I mean solid connect-the-dots biblical proof.
I have yet to see ANY of the REPLACEMENTARIAN, A-MIL, POST-MIL, PRETERIST folks hereon
offer even the faintest hint of a solid BIBLE BASED LOGICAL RESPONSE TO ANY OF THE BIBLICAL PROOFS I'VE POSTED REGARDING ISRAEL AND PROPHECY OR EVEN MERELY THE END TIMES. I CAN'T RECALL A SINGLE EFFORT in say the last 5 years--of theirs that would remotely qualify.
However, the hypocrisy is oddly almost welcome. God has strong feelings about such. Maybe it will spur Him to make more of an effort to have Holy Spirit break through all the denial and willful blindess.
Here's but one example.
Scripture makes clear that Damascus will be obliterated in the END TIMES NEVER to be lived in again.
The pile of stinking rationalization from the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al camp has persistently been that such DID HAPPEN in 70A.D. . . . and then some mumbo-jumbo irrational stuff about how Scripture didn't really mean totally never inhabited ever again . . . just royally trashed in a battle.
I'm sure God is impressed with REPLACEMENTARIANS, et al telling GOD ALMIGHTY what HE meant when He clearly meant the opposite. Sheesh, what cheek!
They also have NEVER had any remotely logical nor remotely UNRUBBERIZED Biblical response to THE WHOLE WORLD being plagued with the weight of Jerusalem around their necks as Scripture foretold in the END TIMES and as exists now as vividly displayed in the UN and MSM globalist news media daily.
The pitiful most they've ever been able to respond with on that score is some other garbage about 70AD and Rome really constituted the whole known world then etc. etc. etc.
As though God lost the rest of the geography of the world and has yet to find it again. What blasphemous idiocy.
Yet we are purportedly the ones without a Biblical stance. God have mercy.
GET EM LORD. CHANGE EM OR MOVE EM OFF MARS HILL, PLEASE.
Jer 23:1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the LORD.
Jer 23:3 "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
Jer 23:4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking," says the LORD.
Jer 23:5 "Behold, [the] days are coming," says the LORD, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this [is] His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 23:7 "Therefore, behold, [the] days are coming," says the LORD, "that they shall no longer say, 'As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,'
Jer 23:8 but, 'As the LORD lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.' And they shall dwell in their own land."
I think we’ve adequately covered that.
It’s contextually obvious that they will be working in behalf of the Kingdom of The King of Kings and Lord of Lrods during the Great Tribulation.
Doing what specifically is of no consequence to the issue of their existence and their being part of the END TIMES GREAT TRIBULATION DRAMA.
However, we can take no responsibility for the inadequate of synapse firing in the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al camp toward comprehending UNRUBBERIZED basic Bible principles and facts.
Clearly context is one of the weaker aspects so chronically wholesale demonstrating cluelessness on the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al side.
That is NOT our responsibility.
I think we’ve adequately covered that.
It’s contextually obvious that they will be working in behalf of the Kingdom of The King of Kings and Lord of Lrods during the Great Tribulation.
Doing what specifically is of no consequence to the issue of their existence and their being part of the END TIMES GREAT TRIBULATION DRAMA.
However, we can take no responsibility for the inadequaCY of synapse firing in the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al camp toward comprehending UNRUBBERIZED basic Bible principles and facts.
Clearly context is one of the weaker aspects so chronically wholesale demonstrating cluelessness on the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al side.
That is NOT our responsibility.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.