Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that lame excuse come from a futurist.
Lest we forget, your Outership, it was you that kept running behind the faulty interpretation of your guru, Don Koenig.
I was more than willing to engage you when you started thinking for yourself.
We're still waiting. If you want to come over here and start badgering, just be prepared to answer things from the Bible.
If you're talking exclusively about Nicea what was resolved? Does Mary preexist Jesus? God? She was given the title "Mother of God" instead of "Mother of Christ". Which term do you think is more appropriate?
Yawn.
No, but it could very well be...
I see on the thread that some place the battle of Gog and Magog at the beginning of the Millennium...The end of the Tribulation...
Some people claim there will be two battles of Gog and Magog...One before the Millennium and one after...
And some put the battle of Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennium...In fact, Jesus does this in Rev. 20...
When one considers that Jesus has been sitting on a physical Throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years (that's a long time), the means of war likely have been pretty much eliminated off the face of the earth...Could be all the tanks, planes and guns are all gone...A Thousand years of peace...
A large army on horseback coming into Jerusalem armed with only swords, led by Satan, may appear to be a large threat to the unarmed inhabitants of Jerusalem...Entirely conceivable to me...
Here we see another RUBBERIZED SILLINESS PERSPECTIVE from the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al camp.
This irrational erroneous view postulates that
GOD ALMIGHTY
NEVER DID IN SCRIPTURE
WRITE ANY PROPHECY
THAT WAS INTENDED ONLY FOR OR PRIMARILY FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS . . . which would make little or no sense to the author or people of the time it was written.
I guess such REPLACEMENTARIANS have thrown out DANIEL from their RUBBER BIBLES.
God, however, had & has a different perspective.
GOD ALMIGHTY TOLD DANIEL TO SEAL UP THE BOOK, that it was not for that time.
Evidently the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al's RUBBER BIBLEs appear to be far shorter than the REAL, AUTHENTIC, UNRUBBERIZED Bible.
BALDERDASH.
Nonsense.
Could be, Iscool. I sure don’t know.
Figures.
If oyu could explain Daniel rather then just fluminating and bloviating, you would win a convert ... me. The fact that all you have are multi-colored empty responses gives me pause. It’s all we’ve come to expect. You and your amen corner.
If oyu could explain Daniel rather then just fluminating and bloviating, you would win a convert ... me. The fact that all you have are multi-colored empty responses gives me pause. It’s all we’ve come to expect. You and your amen corner.
Who is "we" as in "we've come to expect"? I am in nobody's amen corner. I can read, study and conjecture just like anyone else.
BTW...I just had a vision of a child, eyes closed, fingers in ears, screaming "La, la, la, la...!" at the top of his lungs trying to drown out anyone else's voice. Could that be the 'we'?
LOL.
I don’t mind the insults that much.
Sorry for the splatter.
What have you come to expect with Quixie's replies? I and some others have not come to expect much.
Actually, I can't recall any evidence that would affirm the truth of such an assertion in the SLIGHTEST.
I've posted . . . and many others have posted . . .
--BIBLICALLY CONGRUENT PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDINGS
--HISTORICALLY CONGRUENT UNDERSTANDINGS
--LOGICALLY CONGRUENT UNDERSTANDINGS
and the typical REPLACEMENTARIAN et al responses are
--more irrationality
--more RUBBER BIBLE'd hogwash
--more unhistorical hogwash
--more blasphemous heresies that ALL KNOWING, KNOWS THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, GOD ALMIGHTY'S EVERLASTING PROMISES TO THE CHILDREN OF JACOB have been flushed.
God will deal with such in His time.
I just have little motivation to tilt at utterly futile windmills, in spite of my name.
Daniel, on the whole, is not THAT mystifying when one lays his prophecies along-side the history of thie era; Ezekiel; Isaiah; Mat 24; Revelation.
There remain some mysteries on some of the details, but the broad outline of THE END TIMES is not that mystifying from Daniel or the other END TIMES prophecies.
What's utterly irrational and beyond mystifying is trying to cram so much of so many such prophecies into 70A.D. as Replacementarians et al seem so compulsively and irrationally addicted to doing.
The bit about Damascus is but one case in point. Some such folks . . . perhaps you . . . IIRC, tried some months and probably years ago, here on, as well . . . to pretend that it was
--logical
--historical and
--Biblical to
CLAIM that DAMASCUS HAD ALAREADY BEEN UTTERLY DESTROYED NEVER TO BE INHABITED AGAIN----> in 70A.D. or some such.
Yet ya'll want us to take such absurd assertions seriously???! IT BOGGLED MY MIND AT THE TIME AND STILL DOES. How could any rational Christian Conservative even BEGIN to think of such an absurdity--much less brazenly insist it was a correct notion???
All the evidence is that Damascus is all set and cocked to be utterly obliterated just as Scripture predicts--forever more NEVER again to be inhabited.
GOD'S WORD WILL BE OVERWHELMINGLY LITERALLY FULFILLED TO THE LETTER.
Does that mean every detail in 100% of all prophecies will be 100% literally fulfilled to 100% of every interpretation's descriptions of such. Of course not. That's silly.
Neither does it mean that the bulk of such things can remotely be rightly spiritualized, alagorized, meally-mouthed into oblivion and meaninglessness.
GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED. HE MEANT WHAT HE SAID. HE WILL FULFILL EVERY MICROSCOPIC EVEN SCRIPTURAL PUNCTUATION POINT TO THE NTH DEGREE. CHRIST AFFIRMED THAT EMPHATICALLY.
Which word of that do you not understand?
Actually, I see eye-to-eye with Quix quite a bit. I've only been reading his/her replies for a few months, but find they are well thought out, researched, not knee-jerk reactions or rubber-stamped phrases (like - that's YOUR interpretation). I'd like to know why you react so strongly to someone you don't "expect much from". Why bother at all?
That's an interesting thought.
I think it is actually 2 different wars. In Ezekiel specific nations, or tribes, are mentioned. In Revelation it is after the 1,000 yr reign and says all nations. Also, for the Antichrist to enter into a treaty with Israel a war that is won by God intervening against middle east nations that hate Israel is beneficial. The Temple has to be rebuilt and the mosque sitting on that site being destroyed in a war preceding the tribulation makes that possible.
Wikipedia has lot of issues, political battles rage on wikipedia, most of the information is control by lefties, not saying this has anything to do with liberalism, but I go with Chuck on this one, he may have his faults but his knowledge of ancient history is pretty darn good.
Thanks for your kind words.
I think . . . probably
. . . most likely . . . most logically . . .
REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDER is a major motivational component on most of the preterist, a-mil, post-mil, run-of-the-mil, rabid RC sorts etc. who are so compulsively addicted to such jousting.
Mine might even be a minor component on my side. LOL.
A major motivation on my side is I hate seeing lurkers left without any substantive, vivid responses to the horrific heresies folks spout who can remotely imagine that
ALMIGHTY GOD
WOULD ABANDON
HIS EVERLASTING PROMISES that HE PROMISED
WOULD REMAIN IN FORCE as long as there were stars.
Folks could get the idea that God’s promises didn’t amount to anything dependable. That’s blasphemous heresy, to me.
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