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Childish behavior. |
Posted on 07/25/2009 2:40:04 AM PDT by Quix
Thank you for your reply. We are in basic agreement.
I want to note that I am not against the trinitarian tradition - As I have said, I do agree with it.
But even as I declare that, in my own thinking, while processing Scripture, or handling a prayer, or nearly any other thing, it is my tendency to treat the Godhead as though it were made of three separate persons - The arrangement and priority of the Godhead as revealed, not to mention my own sanity, nearly demands it.
And while I see the idea of a coequal triune God, it is also easy to see subordination within the Godhead, as Christ declared Himself sent by the Father (directed), and claims the Father's control over the Spirit. Christ said no one but the Father knows the time of Christ's return. These all (among others) imply hierarchy within the Godhead. So it is easy to see where various theories can come from.
What is important is to understand what Jehovah has revealed - That is true, and must be kept true. What is beyond that is tradition, and should not be exclusionary, or mandated. It does not carry the authority of the Word.
***BY him. At least, per the ESV.
“16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”
“In him were created (en autwi ektisth).
Paul now gives the reason (oti, for) for the primacy of Christ in the work of creation (16). It is the constative aorist passive indicative ektisth (from ktizw, old verb, to found, to create (Romans 1:25). This central activity of Christ in the work of creation is presented also in John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2 and is a complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy. The whole of creative activity is summed up in Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth. God wrought through “the Son of his love.” All earthly dignities are included.
Have been created (ektistai).
Perfect passive indicative of ktizw, “stand created,” “remain created.” The permanence of the universe rests, then, on Christ far more than on gravity. It is a Christo-centric universe. “***
Yes it is; yet these verses indicate that Christ is passive and not the Creator.
***You write, “Again, let me remind you that I believe firmly in the divinity of Jesus; in spite of these passages and because of the Church’s Catechism.”
It didn’t need the Catholic Church’s Catechism for Jesus Christ to be understood as being God. It isn’t something to believe IN SPITE of these passages, for they are painfully clear.***
They are clear inasmuch as they say that Jesus’ role is passive. It is not until John that the divinity of Christ is first told to us.
***No one in the early church doubted Jesus was/is God. To deny that is to deny Christianity entirely. There was a lot of philosophical debate, trying to understand things God has not revealed, such as the inner workings and meanings of the Trinity.***
If that is so, then why were the Synoptics and Paul not clear on the dividnity of Jesus? The Apostles, after Jesus died, were scared to death. After His Ascension, they gather in the upper room, scared to death of the Jews. Hardly a full understanding of Jesus as God.
***Scripture wasn’t written as a systematic theology text. It reveals what we need to know for salvation & living rightly before God. This it does, quite sufficiently and clearly.***
Very good. I largely agree with you. The systematic theology was hammered out by the Church over the next centuries.
***By bricks and mortar, I thought that you were referring to the Church. The Church defines Christianity. Therefore it is entirely coincindent.
Thankfully, no matter how stridently the claim is made, The Roman Catholic Church does not define Christianity any longer ***
The Roman Catholic Church never defined Christianity. The Catholic Church does and will always do so.
***[roamer_1:] It is the Spirit who sanctions.***
That is not an answer.
It is the only answer. Every doctrine of man falls woefully short of the truth - including Roman Catholicism. ***
It is still not an answer, not even a good mystic answer.
***[roamer_1:] The Spirit moves upon the Oneness churches. They see the gifts of the Spirit in their churches regularly. That means more to me than any doctrinal error does.***
Not to me. That is the point. This is a claim of innate knowledge, which is Gnostic. And not Christian, given the definitions of the heresy of Gnosticism.
It is not gnostic. Very little of it has to do with “hidden knowledge”. I am speaking of the value of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as evidence.
To the degree that prophets and prophesying are present, and a part of that process, I would accept that the real possibility for gnosticism exists - but for the most part, that is not what I am pointing to. ***
All of your ‘knowledge’ is hidden. Your ‘gifts of the Spirit’ are not provable, knowable, or observable. If not, then what are you pointing to?
***[roamer_1:] Agreed. But then one must determine the identity of the Church.***
Already done. Scripture, and the Apostolic and Apostolic Father writings are clear.
Hardly clear. At least not in the way the Roman Catholics declare.
The Spirit declares Himself to those who love the Lord. Where the gifts are found, there too, is the Church. ***
I can show you the Fathers and their writings; the entire history and happenings of the Church. What are these gifts, where are they, how have they been bestowed and how do you know that they are of the Spirit?
***You claimed that you have been personally sanctioned by the Holy Spirit. What is the manner of that sanction? How can you show it?
According to Scripture, all Christians receive personal sanction by the Holy Spirit, each according to their faith.***
That is not an answer. How, for instance, do I know that you are Christian?
*** My own is not a spectacular calling. I have experienced visions and dreams since a young age, and some foreknowledge (which is of little use). That is the only supernatural gifting I have been given. But I love to be in the Spirit. ***
Again, not an answer. How do you know that you are gifted by the Holy Spirit and not by something else?
***My focus, having witnessed the power of God, has been in finding it expressed upon the earth and in the church (as promised), in the beauty and intricacy with which the Prophecy has been intertwined within and throughout the Word, and how the Prophecy has continued to progress through the ages (as promised). In other words, proof.***
You have presented none thus far.
***So, in the course of my life, I have sought where the Spirit has led, and I have been satisfied to be a witness for the Lord. Not a perfect one, by any means... In fact, among the least of them all. Hopefully, He will see fit to give me more.***
Again, these are simply words that may be of little import; they may be of a charlatan, a mystic, a drug addict. How can you show that you are led by the Spirit?
***Re:I would suggest looking at the terminology. All things were made for and through Him. This does not identify Him as God. All this does is identify Him as powerful.
Please note that I believe that Jesus is Divine and the second Person of the Trinity; it is just that Paul does not specifically identify Him as God.
I beg to differ, Paul most certainly referred to Jesus as God. Several times when he even was first starting out in the ministry. He says:
Act 14:15
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:,
Also:
Act 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
I read from just these two verses that Paul says the true God created all things. If it is agreed that Jesus created ALL things, then Jesus must be God.***
But, these lines do not say that Jesus is God; they do not even infer it. Paul directs us to the living God; he does not say Jesus. I agree that Jesus is God; but it does NOT say that here.
***It’s a curious thing that you claim there is no evidence of the Trinity in the scriptures and your religion ‘developed’ the doctrine 400 years after the fact...***
Actually, I have been claiming that there is no clear statement of the divinity of Jesus in the Synoptics or in Paul; it is only in John that the first statements occur.
***Notice the terminology here, too. All things were created in Him. Not by Him. All things were created through Him and for Him and not by Him.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:***
Ephesians 3:
8
To me, the very least of all the holy ones, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the inscrutable riches of Christ,
9
and to bring to light [for all] 5 what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things,
10
so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities 6 in the heavens.
11
This was according to the eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
12
in whom we have boldness of speech and confidence of access through faith in him.
Nothing of the divinity of Christ here. God accomplished His eternal purpose in Jesus. Sounds like Paul is calling Jesus a messenger boy to be sent to accomplish a task.
Colossians 1:
15
6 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16
For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
In Him were created; all things created through Him and for Him. No divinity here; you are arguing for subordinationalism and I’m not sure that you want to do that.
***You obviously don’t get your information from the Bible...***
Look again. You may be surprised.
***Sabellius’ view saw the existence of the Son as confined to his earthly work. Consequently he cannot continue to be ‘an advocate with the Father’ (1 John 2:1) or be said to ‘live forever to make intercession’ (Heb. 7:25).
From what I can make out, and from what I know, that is not the case in any major Protestant branch, nor is it the case with the Oneness Pentecostals.
While I admit their view is modalist, it is my impression that they believe the modal feature to still exist after the resurrection and ascension. As a further admission, this issue is further confused by their declaration that the natural “condition” of Jehovah is not God the Father, but Jesus Christ. This is very odd to my sensibilities. But either way, they do believe the act of intercession is very much active and eternal. ***
And? If I believe that God’s fourth mode is pink unicorns that live on Jupiter, it is still wrong according to the Church. Splitting beliefs is not not Christian.
***But as I said before, this is much ado about something that is a serious mystery. The trinitarian view is by no means settled, that is to say, provable, and is equally as complex and fraught with inconsistency. ***
The trinitarian view is settled. It is not proveable and it is one of the doctrines of the Church. It is contained in the definition of Christian; if you are not Trinitarian you are not Christian. You may define your own beliefs differently but to be consistent, you must calls your own beliefs by a different label.
***Everywhere I have ever gone, the Trinity is taught, and accepted, though not particularly emphasized. The emphasis in Protestantism tends to be Christ and the Bible, especially so when one ventures outward from the Lutheran/Reformed core.
Perhaps that strong focus is odd to the Catholic mind, which (and I mean no offense in this at all), seems to require more mechanisms and see things as requiring a much greater scope than Protestants do. ***
I advise you to revisit Church history and find all those great theologians such as Origen and Tertullian and Marcion and Novitian who spurned the Church and struck out on their own and could not accept the Consensus Patrum. Protestants, especially the Pentecostals, UUs and the more liberal wings, find it easier to freewheel. The mallfront churches are not created nor are they staffed by Catholics.
***Pompous? No. Ill conceived? It is part of the responsibility of the Church and is extensively documented going right back to the Apostles and the Apostolic Fathers.
I don’t really have the desire to get into the 1200 years of paganism, genocide, political intrigues, and etcetera which are the fruit of the Roman Catholic Church.***
Odd way of putting it, since the Church has been the bulwark against paganism and genocide.
***Come! Let’s go together and learn how to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth! His yoke is light, and He is the fullness of healing and forgiveness. ***
That is the message of the Catechism. I don’t know how familiar you are with it after leaving the Church, but just for interest, you might want to read it.
***We don’t all agree on anything. Simon Magus and the Gnostics; and the Judaizers were the first major threats against the Church. The Creeds were developed for the people to have a formula that they could recite in short form that was a summary of the Faith. [...]
That was before the Scriptures were made widely available. The Book settles all this nonsense if we quit trying to pump ourselves up with doctrine that isn’t there.
It is not nonsense. The Catechism is clear.
No, it is not. ***
Quite clear. If you wish to debate point by point, we can.
***And is it your purpose to imply that Pentecostals/Charismatics, particularly, have a loose grip on faith? Because would have to say that I have seen their faith confirmed time after time, and it is likewise, confirmed in me. ***
I never said that and I would take umbrage if I didn’t think that you honestly didn’t get my point. I said that the Pentecostals in my experience and in my reading have a looser grip on the CHRISTIAN faith. Pentecostals tends to have a strong faith. But with the novelties that I have observed and have mentioned, and with no Catechism or other strong indicator of the faith, how strong is their CHRISTIAN faith in all cases?
***But even so, churches and individuals are misled by false doctrines and false leaders too - None are immune, and nothing can be relied upon, especially in the world of men. That is why the Bible is so important as a primary anchor. Something, somewhere must be used as the sole standard. ***
But Jesus did not leave the Bible as the primary anchor. If you read your Scripture, it is clear that He left His Church as the primary anchor. Paul is clear on that too.
***Believe me, I looked for a very, very long time for guidance from the Church. There is *none* outside of Pentecostal/Charismatic circles.***
What exactly forms the methodology of guidance in these circles?
***I don’t want to jump too deep into a discussion of the Trinity, but...
Some facts are taught in Scripture: Jesus is God. God the Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. They are one, yet the Scripture describes them with personal pronouns.***
Fair enough. My point is and remains that the Synoptic Gospels and Paul did not teach the divinity of Jesus. Or the Holy Spirit. The JWs and various other groups have their own Scriptural justification for what they believe.
***One doesn’t go very far from that before one leaves revelation from God and enters speculation from men. The Church Councils from 300 on sometimes dealt with genuine issues, but often speculated - and banned - things that had nothing to do with believing in Jesus or living a life pleasing to God. The date to celebrate Easter isn’t exactly a core belief in Christianity, but the Bishop of Rome was more interested in rejecting people for that than evangelizing the lost!***
Are you sure? I would disagree with your statement.
***I don’t think God is all that worried about majority votes by Bishops who cared more for their power than for preaching the Good News. If God required a detailed knowledge of the Trinity for salvation, HE would have provided it. In detail. If He could provide Levitical priests detailed descriptions of what to wear & do, He could also have provided “The Apostle Peter & Paul’s Book of Systematic Theology”.***
To go further along those lines, let us consider that Jesus never provided us with ANY written words except those that were written in the dust and presumably were lost that very day. He painstakingly provided us His Church with a bunch of dunderheads that He had to keep teaching the same things over and over again and who didn’t really believe wholly and fully in Him until Pentecost.
***He didn’t, and we ought to show humility and not go beyond what He has revealed about Himself. We are not qualified to do that.***
Only the Church is authorized to form doctrine and to teach. Beyond that, we dare not go.
9 and to bring to light [for all] 5 what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things,
Sorry Charlie...I see you're quoting the Douay Rheims book...And this is to show that nothing was created by Jesus, but God???
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Not only is it clear in the Majority Texts that Paul wrote that Jesus was the creator,
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
it's clear you are being dishonest in not following up on Jerome's faulty interpretation to where he sets the record more right...
This is from your Catholic bible;
Col 1:16 For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by him and in him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all: and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy: Even Jerome knew Jesus was the creator...What happened to you???
Of course Jesus was divine and Paul preached it...
******Notice the terminology here, too. All things were created in Him. Not by Him. All things were created through Him and for Him and not by Him.
9 and to bring to light [for all] 5 what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things,
Sorry Charlie...I see you’re quoting the Douay Rheims book***
My name is not Charlie. It’s Mark. And I’m quoting the NAB.
***Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Not only is it clear in the Majority Texts that Paul wrote that Jesus was the creator, ***
It says that God the Father created all things. And even so, it does not claim the divinity of Jesus.
But even so; where is the claim of divinity? There is the claim of creation with God the Father creating through Jesus. Paul does not say that Jesus is divine anywhere and it cannot be derived except through Church interpretation.
I know you are just trying to make a point here MarkBsnr, but just a quick read through some writings of Paul, he almost takes for granted that those he is writing to understand the nature of Jesus Christ and that he and God the Father and Holy Ghost are one. Here are a few for you to look up (You can go to http://www.tgm.org/bible.htm for an easy way to see them in any version you desire):
Romans 8:9-11 "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" used interchangeably, meaning the same thing.
Romans 14:8-9 We are the Lord's, Christ is the Lord.
Romans 15:16 and Romans 15:19,29 - Actually many other places in Romans and throughout Paul's epistles, he uses "Gospel of God" and "Gospel of Christ" interchangeably.
I Corinthians 1:24 Christ is the "power of God" and the "wisdom of God".
II Cor. 4:3,4 Christ, who is the image of God.
II Cor. 4:6 Knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
II Cor. 5:19 Plainly says "God was in Christ."
II Cor. 13:14 Very plainly refers to the trinity -
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen.
What do you mean, but even so...You just went thru a big diatribe claiming that there was no divinity shown for Jesus because creation wasn't BY Jesus, but For Jesus...
You have been shown you are wrong and all you can say is 'But even so???
It's time for you to man up on that issue and move along...
The scripture says God was the Creator...The scripture says Jesus was the Creator...That with tons of other confirming verses make it impossible to conclude the scripture doesn't reveal the Trinity...
You're so caught up in the fallacy that your religion can not err, you completely ignore what the scripture say...
The Trinity is all over the scripture and as such, Jesus is Divine...
***I know you are just trying to make a point here MarkBsnr, but just a quick read through some writings of Paul, he almost takes for granted that those he is writing to understand the nature of Jesus Christ and that he and God the Father and Holy Ghost are one. ***
You are absolutely correct. It is making a point. The point is that Scripture is not necessarily perspicuous and not necessarily clear.
***Romans 8:9-11 “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” used interchangeably, meaning the same thing.***
But Romans 8:11 also says that: If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you.
This, on the surface says that Jesus is subordinate to and a messenger from God.
***Romans 14:8-9 We are the Lord’s, Christ is the Lord.***
The term Lord is used interchangeably between God and man.
***Romans 15:16 and Romans 15:19,29 - Actually many other places in Romans and throughout Paul’s epistles, he uses “Gospel of God” and “Gospel of Christ” interchangeably.***
Agreed; it still does not definitively call Jesus God; here Jesus could be a an exalted messenger - Gabriel brought the message of God, not his own.
You bring up good examples and ones that the Church took into account in declaring the Trinitarian formula, in all probability. Yet by themselves and in this grouping, they do not once and for all call Jesus God.
*** The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen.***
And to everyone reading this thread.
***But even so; where is the claim of divinity?
What do you mean, but even so...You just went thru a big diatribe claiming that there was no divinity shown for Jesus because creation wasn’t BY Jesus, but For Jesus...***
Why are you getting it wrong again? My ‘diatribe’ was one example of many that indicate subordinationalism and not the divinity of Jesus. My claim is that, and is supported entirely by Scripture and neither the Synoptic Gospels nor Paul contradict that with any veracity.
Without the Magisterium, YOPIOS can go any way whatsoever.
You stated in an earlier thread that until the Gospel of John was written, Christians did not acknowledge the divinity of Christ. You attempted to show that the apostle Paul never mentioned it, but you forget a very important detail. The gospel of John may have been written at a later date than other scriptures, but all that means is that the spoken words of Jesus, as remembered by John, were recorded in a manuscript.
The fact is that Jesus SPOKE those words many years earlier. They were taught in the churches by the apostles and disciples long before they were formally written down and gathered together in one source. Jesus Christ said himself that he was God incarnate. Many times, his words and actions provoked the religious leaders to take him down because they knew he was claiming to be the Messiah, claiming to be God.
Do you consider yourself above the rules?
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