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Posted on 07/25/2009 2:40:04 AM PDT by Quix
The Bible says we cannot know the time of the Lord's return (Matthew 25:13). But the Scriptures make it equally clear that we can know the season of the Lord's return (1 Thessalonians 5:2-6):
"You yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night... But you brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night or darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober."
This passage asserts that Jesus is coming like "a thief in the night." But then it proceeds to make it clear that this will be true only for the pagan world and not for believers. His return should be no surprise to those who know Him and His Word, for they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give them understanding of the nature of the times.
Furthermore, the Scriptures give us signs to watch for — signs that will signal that Jesus is ready to return. The writer of the Hebrew letter referred to these signs when he proclaimed that believers should encourage one another when they see the day of judgment drawing near (Hebrews 10:25-27). Jesus also referred to the end time signs in His Olivet Discourse, given during the last week of His life (Matthew 24 and Luke 21). Speaking of a whole series of signs which He had given to His disciples, He said, "When you see all these things, recognize that He [the Son of Man — that is, Jesus] is near, right at the door" (Matthew 24:33).
A Personal Experience
Every time I think of "Signs of the Times," I am reminded of a great man of God named Elbert Peak. I had the privilege of participating with him in a Bible prophecy conference held in Orlando, Florida in the early 1990's. Mr. Peak was about 80 years old at the time.
He had been assigned the topic, "The Signs of the Times." He began his presentation by observing, "Sixty years ago when I first started preaching, you had to scratch around like a chicken to find one sign of the Lord's soon return."
He paused for a moment, and then added, "But today there are so many signs I'm no longer looking for them. Instead, I'm listening for a sound — the sound of a trumpet!"
The First Sign
One hundred years ago in 1907 there was not one single, tangible, measurable sign that indicated we were living in the season of the Lord's return. The first to appear was the Balfour Declaration which was issued by the British government on November 2, 1917.
This Declaration was prompted by the fact that during World War I the Turks sided with the Germans. Thus, when Germany lost the war, so did the Turks, and the victorious Allies decided to divide up both the German and Turkish empires.
The Turkish territories, called the Ottoman Empire, contained the ancient homeland of the Jewish people — an area the Romans had named Palestine after the last Jewish revolt in 132-135 AD.
In 1917 Palestine included all of modern day Israel and Jordan. In the scheme the Allies concocted for dividing up the German and Turkish territories, Britain was allotted Palestine, and this is what prompted the Balfour Declaration. In that document, Lord Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary, declared that it was the intention of the British government to establish in Palestine "a national home for the Jewish people."
The leading Evangelical in England at the time was F. B. Meyer. He immediately recognized the prophetic significance of the Declaration, for he was well aware that the Scriptures prophesy that the Jewish people will be regathered to their homeland in unbelief right before the return of the Messiah (Isaiah 11:11-12).
Meyer sent out a letter to the Evangelical leaders of England asking them to gather in London in December to discuss the prophetic implications of the Balfour Declaration. In that letter, he stated, "The signs of the times point toward the close of the time of the Gentiles... and the return of Jesus can be expected any moment."
Before Meyer's meeting could be convened, another momentous event occurred. On December 11, 1917 General Edmund Allenby liberated the city of Jerusalem from 400 years of Turkish rule.
There is no doubt that these events in 1917 marked the beginning of the end times because they led to the worldwide regathering of the Jewish people to their homeland and the reestablishment of their state.
Since 1917
Since the time of the Balfour Declaration, we have witnessed throughout the 20th Century the appearance of sign after sign pointing to the Lord's soon return. There are so many of these signs today, in fact, that one would have to be either biblically illiterate or spiritually blind not to realize that we are living on borrowed time.
I have personally been searching the Bible for years in an effort to identify all the signs, and it has not been an easy task to get a hold on them. That's because there are so many of them, both in the Old and New Testaments.
I have found that the best way to deal with them is to put them in categories, and in doing that, I have come up with six categories of end time signs. We will explore these catetories beginning in Part 2 of this series.
E.g.? There is no apostolic mention of a double/dual fulfillment.
All well and good, so the gospel was preached into all the world before AD 70?
See Col. 1:6.
How was MT 24:30-31 specifically fulfilled?
Appearance of the SignImmediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:29-31)Coming in the CloudsThe third and final clause of verse 30 says, "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." This clause has been thought to relate definitely to the second, visible, and personal coming of the Lord. But in the light of well-defined biblical language, the reference is rather to a coming in terms of the events of his providence in judgment against his enemies and in deliverance of his people.
It should be noted carefully that neither this verse nor this particular clause indicates a coming upon earth. Some have read into this clause that Jesus was actually descending to the earth for the purpose of taking up a reign in the city of Jerusalem. Nothing like that is indicated. As a matter of fact, there is not a single verse in the New Testament to indicate that Christ will reign upon a material throne in the material city of Jerusalem. This thought has been imported by a carnal interpretation of Old Testament passages. Christ is actually seated now upon his Messianic throne.
Many commentators have taken it for granted that the expression "coming in the clouds" refers to a visible coming of Christ. A careful study of the Scriptures, however, reveals that that is not a necessary interpretation. A similar expression occurs in Isaiah 19:1, "Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." Although this passage speaks of the Lord riding upon a cloud and of his presence, nevertheless we know that the Egyptians did not see the Lord in a personal, visible way. The Lord riding upon a swift cloud indicated a coming in judgment against the Egyptians.
A similar type of expression concerning judgment is found in Psalm 97:2,3: "Clouds and darkness are round him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne. A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about." In speaking of the mighty power of God the Psalmist uses this expression: "Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters; who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind" (Ps. 104:3). The expression "who maketh the clouds his chariot," is no different from "coming in the clouds of heaven." In the Psalms there is no thought of a personal, visible coming of the Lord, but rather references to his judgment and power.
Following the well-defined biblical sense of such expression the last clause of verse 30 may well be interpreted then to indicate a coming in judgment and power: judgment against his enemies and power to the establishment of his kingdom.
This interpretation is borne out by the words of Christ in other passages when he indicated that he was coming before the contemporary generation would pass away. He said: "Verily I say unto you, there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matt. 16:28). Christ was saying that some of the people actually standing before him and listening to him would not die until they saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom. This could hardly refer to a personal and visible coming in that generation.
The same thought in conveyed in Christ's words to the High Priest: "Thou hast said: Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:64). This High Priest was to see Christ sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven. Can this possibly refer to Christ's second coming when the description "sitting on the right hand of power" precludes such interpretation. It means rather that after the crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus would ascend into heaven and take his place on the right hand of God, the Father, as described in Daniel 7:13,14: "I saw in the night vision, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." When Christ ascended into heaven he was seated upon his Messianic throne. This is in full accord with the declaration of Christ as he was about to ascend into heaven: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." One of the first manifestation of the power and glory of Messiah was the destruction of the city that refused to accept him as King and Saviour. This act of judgment gave evidence that all power had indeed been given unto him. He did come in the clouds of heaven and rained destruction upon those who had rejected and crucified him. This caused the tribes of the earth to mourn. The sign of the reigning Christ was seen in the destruction of Jerusalem. The contemporary generation, indicated in verse 34, witnessed fulfillment of these things as Christ had prophesied.
J. Marcellus Kik
An Eschatology of Victory
Presbyterian and Reformed, 1971
pp. 140-143
LOL, Jesus' citation of Noah and the ark are also a common type of the rapture. Secondly, it was directed at non-believers, not believers.
Jesus’ comments in Matthew 24 were given to believers, specifically the disciples at Olivet, not unbelievers. “Therefore you [disciples] also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you [disciples] do not expect. “ Perhaps your dispensational presups prevent you from reading the text plainly.
Such is the nature of the discussion about the rapture. If folks don’t accept the dispie presups, which most do not, then all the handwaving about history sans Church doesn’t make any sense.
You are calling Quix a liar about what his job is? That is *so* bad form.
Disparaging the reputation of your debating partner in that way only confirms that you have lost the debate. It also makes you look like a very small person. Why in the world would you do this?
Also, using the terminology “InterWebz” and making the “nothing can be trusted on the internet” cop-out argument makes you sound like one of those people on video game boards or perhaps even 4chan. The kind who have no control over themselves or their emotions. Who are so filled with pride and arrogance, yet are utterly trapped in their ignorance. Besides, all the use of that argument does is lead one to believe that you lie about yourself.
In all honesty you should apologize to Quix, agree to disagree, and then leave the thread.
But who is to say that YOU are correct and Quix is incorrect? I say accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior and live accordingly and I will glady worship next to you in Heaven one day.
Let’s leave the smaller details to our Lord.
Please remove me from the long version, let me remain on a short ping. Thanks
A minority of Israel, perhaps. Don’t forget that 2/3 of Israel living in the land will fall under the wrath of God and be killed apart from Christ during dispensationalism's future “great tribulation”.
"InterWebz"
Used in irony.
In the Church Age we have a temple provided by God in which He may dwell.
Go back and review the processes which are required for cleansing prior to a priest entering the Holy Place.
“between one step and the next, the individual just disappears . . . from one step left in the dew marks . . . suddenly individual guard disappears . . . individuals start winking out of existence . . . like stumbling into a . . . time thing or something weird . . .”
Remind you of anything. . . ?
Abraham and Isaac for starters. Try also Mt 1:23
See Col. 1:6.
States nothing about the gospel being preached to the WHOLE world before AD 70
But in the light of well-defined biblical language, the reference is rather to a coming in terms of the events of his providence in judgment against his enemies and in deliverance of his people.
So, details - how did he judge His enemies and deliver his people in AD70? You have made the claim that this portion of Mt 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem. Are you now backing away and trying to present a spiritualization of the prophecy? If so, a 'spiritualization' cannot morph into a physical and real prophetic event.
Coming in the Clouds
Which your source spends a lot of time on. While it is an oft used metaphor, the disciples question was regarding a very real, physical return. Don't forget, when Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud an angel told His disciples that He would return the same way (Acts 1:11). How in vs 30 do the tribes of the earth 'mourn' a metaphor?
No, the rest of the article is spiritualization, plain and simple and you've failed to show how that portion of Mt 24 was specifically fulfilled in the events of AD 70 as you claimed they were.
Jesus’ comments in Matthew 24 were given to believers, specifically the disciples at Olivet, not unbelievers. “Therefore you [disciples] also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you [disciples] do not expect. “ Perhaps your dispensational presups prevent you from reading the text plainly.
Interesting that you selectively choose when and when not to spiritualize your interpetation of Jesus' words and prophecies. But then what should they 'watch' for, since in your eschatological world, prophecies from Christ are spiritualized and diluted?
Such is the nature of the discussion about the rapture. If folks don’t accept the dispie presups, which most do not, then all the handwaving about history sans Church doesn’t make any sense.
As pointed out before - your theology is inconsistent in this regard. The only way you can make your theology work is to a priori dismiss NT prophecy via spiritualization or write it off as an oblique reference to a historic event. This steals away from the OT prophecy concerning Christ.
Very good point. The question asked by the disciples was the long sought answer to when messiah will rule as king physically over Israel as promised by the OT prophets and prophecies. That is why the context of the passage as a whole is important - Jesus is answering the disciples' question.
Keep in mind too verse 21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. " How applicable is the destruction of Jerusalem to this? Million of Jews were killed during the holocaust. This alone indicates that the events of AD 70 are not what Jesus was speaking about - but something later.
Just as the OT prophecies of Jesus resulted in real, tangible fulfillments, why would the NT prophecies - particularly those by Jesus Himself - result in anything less tangible?
And yet even that minority will be awakened to God's grace, does that thought disturb you? (and you are not entirely correct on the 2/3 number, but you are trying :))
Can you prove that from the Bible, or is it, perhaps, merely a raw assertion of futurism?
The Bible teaches that the remnant of Israel will come to Christ and be saved. Why should that disturb me? It is a glorious thing.
(and you are not entirely correct on the 2/3 number, but you are trying :))
"Prior to Israel's conversion, Zechariah predicts that two-thirds ("two parts") of the Jewish people in the land will perish during the tribulation period. Only one third of the Jewish population will survive until Christ comes to establish His kingdom on earth." (dispensationalist Tm LaHaye, Prophecy Study Bible, p. 991)
"According to Zechariah´s prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah." (dispensationalist John Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy, p. 108)
Really now TC, is this topic striking such a raw nerve? Simple reference to the bible answers your statement -
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
I trust you have the abilty to cross reference to Daniel to read what Jesus was referencing.
IOW, don't take Paul's words literally. Read them dispensationally.
If so, a 'spiritualization' cannot morph into a physical and real prophetic event.
Contra dispensational thinking, spiritual is both physical and real. The error of dispensationalism is in trying to read the biblical prophecies like they read the evening newspaper.
prophecies from Christ are spiritualized and diluted?
It is another error of dispensationalism to see the spiritual as somehow diluted.
As pointed out before - your theology is inconsistent in this regard.
Hardly. It is simply contrary to the erroneous views of dispensationalism.
It is only a problem for dispensationalism to grasp. It is all the same event, which historically lasted for a period of time.
Is that an answer or a dodge? Are there animal sacrifices happening in this temple?
Interesting, forgot about that one - and where in Zechariah is that found? I know it already, but it is also pertinent to this discussion. Is this a literal 2/3rds or spiritualized in some manner.
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