Pope Benedict XVI calls for new economic system based on love in G8 message [new, stronger U.N.]

Times Online ^ | July 7, 2009 | Ruth Gledhill

[choirboy]

You don't know your geography. Rome, on one side of the Tiber, sits on seven hills. The Vatican, on the other side of the Tiber, sits on one hill, Vatican Hill.

So, if you're talking about seven hills, you're not talking about the Catholic Church. If you include the Catholic Church, you're talking about eight hills.

In either case, your argument fails.

[Mr Rogers]

The next two sentences after 'subsidiarity:

"Furthermore, such an authority would need to be universally recognized and to be vested with the effective power to ensure security for all, regard for justice, and respect for rights[148]. Obviously it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums."

In effect, a one world government. Forgive me if I don't enlist...

[Pyro7480]

Yes, but he repeats the point about subsidiarity after that:

Without this, despite the great progress accomplished in various sectors, international law would risk being conditioned by the balance of power among the strongest nations. The integral development of peoples and international cooperation require the establishment of a greater degree of international ordering, marked by subsidiarity, for the management of globalization[149]. They also require the construction of a social order that at last conforms to the moral order, to the interconnection between moral and social spheres, and to the link between politics and the economic and civil spheres...

[Buckeye McFrog]

....all you need is love

(all together now)

dum-dah-dah-de-dah

....all you need is love

dum-dah-dah-de=dah

(compare the Pope who came of age in Communist Poland vs. the one who did the same in current day Socialist Germany)

[Pyro7480]

You didn't even read the encyclical, did you? Read paragraph 3 by itself, and it becomes very clear that he's no John Lennon:

Through this close link with truth, charity can be recognized as an authentic expression of humanity and as an element of fundamental importance in human relations, including those of a public nature. Only in truth does charity shine forth, only in truth can charity be authentically lived. Truth is the light that gives meaning and value to charity. That light is both the light of reason and the light of faith, through which the intellect attains to the natural and supernatural truth of charity: it grasps its meaning as gift, acceptance, and communion. Without truth, charity degenerates into sentimentality. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled in an arbitrary way. In a culture without truth, this is the fatal risk facing love. It falls prey to contingent subjective emotions and opinions, the word “love” is abused and distorted, to the point where it comes to mean the opposite. Truth frees charity from the constraints of an emotionalism that deprives it of relational and social content, and of a fideism that deprives it of human and universal breathing-space. In the truth, charity reflects the personal yet public dimension of faith in the God of the Bible, who is both Agápe and Lógos: Charity and Truth, Love and Word.

[Alex Murphy]

The text of Benedict XVI itself disproves your speculation that he's calling for a one-world government...."[the principle of subsidiary] holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization. In other words, any activity which can be performed by a more decentralized entity should be. This principle is a bulwark of limited government and personal freedom. It conflicts with the passion for centralization and bureaucracy characteristic of the Welfare State."

Thanks for that info, Pyro. A couple of comments on the encyclical excerpt:

First, it's worth pointing out that this encyclical is self-consciously intending to "pay tribute and to honour the memory of the great Pope Paul VI, revisiting his teachings on integral human development", specifically naming the Encyclical Populorum Progressio as the foundation BXVI intends to build on with this work. In the section on the U.N. the "subsidiary" quote comes from BXVI himself, but the majority (but not all) of the "one-world-government" sounding quotes are taken Pope John XXIII's encyclical Pacem in Terris. Benedict himself says that this "family of nations" would

...need to be regulated by law, to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, to seek to establish the common good, and to make a commitment to securing authentic integral human development inspired by the values of charity in truth.

A U.N. "regulated by law" would mean either a U.N. self-regulated by charter, or regulated by an outside entity, perhaps by it's member nations. The latter seems to be what BXVI has in mind, when he goes on to say (emphasis mine)

....it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums. Without this, despite the great progress accomplished in various sectors, international law would risk being conditioned by the balance of power among the strongest nations.

The U.N. would be subservient to it's member nations, but none of those nations will have a greater say than any others, enforcing a sort of economic and moral equivalence among them:

....of giving poorer nations an effective voice in shared decision-making.

None of that changes how the recommendation starts, namely with BXVI's call for a "United Nations with teeth" that has the authority to redistribute wealth, to manage the global economy, to disarm nations, and to protect the environment....and the power to back it up [emphasis mine]:

....such an authority would need to be universally recognized and to be vested with the effective power to ensure security for all, regard for justice, and respect for rights. Obviously it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums.

[Mr Rogers]

If you have a government that can impose its will on all below it...it is a government. Look at how well we, with the Constitution, have subsidiary’ today.

[marshmallow]

In effect, a one world government. Forgive me if I don't enlist...

You could construe it that way but if it respects the principles of subsidiarity, it can't be.

Furthermore, the Pope states that it would need to be "universally recognized". That's not a "top down" one world government. It's a "bottom up" structure which depends for its mandate on a common consensus in agreement with the rule of law. The clear implication is that without the "universal recognition" the body has no authority.

Thus, he's not calling for the imposition of a socialist dictatorship. He's calling first and foremost for a solidarity among peoples which leads in turn to the recognition of universal human rights based on natural law.

Here's the good news, however. You won't have to enlist. This will never happen.

Nobody listens to the Pope. Not even Catholics.

[Petronski]

...namely with BXVI's call for a "United Nations with teeth"...

Quotation marks. Hmmm.

Where did Benedict use those words "United Nations with teeth" in the encyclical or anywhere else?

[Salvation]

All of you need to read some of this. Pope Benedict is not saying what this leftist interpretation says.

Excerpts from Pope Benedict XVI New Encyclical "CARITAS IN VERITATE" (CHARITY AND TRUTH)

[SaraJohnson]

Things are lining up for Revelations... The anti-Christ’s Pope soon to follow this Pope.

Man, as a Catholic it is going to be hard to cut ties when and if the church comes under the leadership of evil. There will be clear signs: Everything that is a sin and that is a lie will become that Pope’s goodness and revisions to the faith. It will look like the church has wedded the evil Liberation Theology mob of “Christians.” Real Christians will be hated and debased in an unholy union.

[Pyro7480]

has the authority to redistribute wealth

I don't think Benedict is a socialist though, since he says the following in the encyclical as well (as well as the Church's consistent condemnation of socialism):

41. In the context of this discussion, it is helpful to observe that business enterprise involves a wide range of values, becoming wider all the time. The continuing hegemony of the binary model of market-plus-State has accustomed us to think only in terms of the private business leader of a capitalistic bent on the one hand, and the State director on the other....

42. ...The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale; if badly directed, however, they can lead to an increase in poverty and inequality, and could even trigger a global crisis. It is necessary to correct the malfunctions, some of them serious, that cause new divisions between peoples and within peoples, and also to ensure that the redistribution of wealth does not come about through the redistribution or increase of poverty: a real danger if the present situation were to be badly managed.

57. ...A particular manifestation of charity and a guiding criterion for fraternal cooperation between believers and non-believers is undoubtedly the principle of subsidiarity, an expression of inalienable human freedom. Subsidiarity is first and foremost a form of assistance to the human person via the autonomy of intermediate bodies. Such assistance is offered when individuals or groups are unable to accomplish something on their own, and it is always designed to achieve their emancipation, because it fosters freedom and participation through assumption of responsibility. Subsidiarity respects personal dignity by recognizing in the person a subject who is always capable of giving something to others. By considering reciprocity as the heart of what it is to be a human being, subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state. It is able to take account both of the manifold articulation of plans — and therefore of the plurality of subjects — as well as the coordination of those plans. Hence the principle of subsidiarity is particularly well-suited to managing globalization and directing it towards authentic human development. In order not to produce a dangerous universal power of a tyrannical nature, the governance of globalization must be marked by subsidiarity, articulated into several layers and involving different levels that can work together. Globalization certainly requires authority, insofar as it poses the problem of a global common good that needs to be pursued. This authority, however, must be organized in a subsidiary and stratified way, if it is not to infringe upon freedom and if it is to yield effective results in practice.

[Pyro7480]

Well, one must remember that the “gates of hell shall not prevail” against the Church.

[SaraJohnson]

That is true and thank God! But the church is constantly under attack by evil and we have to hold our own for Christ even if evil reaches the Pope for a time.

[marshmallow]

Do we see here elements of the Protestant approach to Scripture in the way this encyclical is being taken? Clearly the encyclical has to be read in toto and has to be consistent both with its various parts and with longstanding Catholic social teaching and doctrine as explained in the Catechism and other Papal documents.

Using this as a starting point, it's possible to understand the Pope's meaning and the overarching thrust of the encyclical. It is, in fact, a comprehensive analysis of most of our current social and economic ills and a real tour de force as far as constructive solutions based on Christian thinking are concerned.

It's precisely this "take it out of context" approach that leads to all sorts of misunderstandings with Scripture and old habits obviously die hard.

[Petronski]

It's precisely this "take it out of context" approach that leads to all sorts of misunderstandings with Scripture and old habits obviously die hard.

Ah yes, Scriptural Deal-a-Meal.

[Mr Rogers]

Then the Pope is an idiot to call for both an organization that can govern - impose its will - on nations, and subsidiarity at the same time.

They are antithetical.

[Mr Rogers]

“Furthermore, the Pope states that it would need to be “universally recognized”. That’s not a “top down” one world government. It’s a “bottom up” structure which depends for its mandate on a common consensus in agreement with the rule of law. The clear implication is that without the “universal recognition” the body has no authority.”

Then he should finish his piece with, “BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

[stockpirate]

I’ll be waiting for them. They can take my 12ga and whatever ammo is left with them when they leave, I won’t needing any longer after that.

BTW- I like your tagline. Mine used to read, “A people unwilling to use extreme violent force to preserve their liberty deserves the tyrant that rules them.” SP

From the article seems we have to pick Obama or the Pope.

[stockpirate]

The governments business shoukd be to promote free enterprise and business, NOT love and charity. The government has no rights granted in our constitution to promote love.