Posted on 06/28/2009 12:09:35 PM PDT by Colofornian
You refuse to address the striking differences between the behavior of the “protestants” and the lds at MM. Why is that?
I’ll pose the question this way, Do you condone the deceitful, despicable and devilish behavior of the lds at MM because of the militia at Haun’s Mill who were fighting an armed group of men and the mob at Carthage where only armed men were killed/wounded?
Keep in mind that 19 years had passed since the events in MO and that the Fancher-Baker Party was from Arkansas, not Missouri so there would have been no moral or legitimate reason for taking revenge upon those settlers on their way to CA.
Are you saying that there is a moral equivalency because a) men were killed in gun battles, therefore b) unarmed men, women and children become acceptable targets?
SZ
Oh, yes, the mormons sing songs on Sunday mornings..
But what do they do to the original words...
Lets look at that wonderful song
Holy, Holy, Holy...
The original words were Biblical and uplifting...
God in three Persons
Blessed triniy..
But the mormormon’s threw out those words
and the mormon tabernacle choir sing instead..
God in his glory
Blessed Deity
and these lines from the real thing...
Holy, holy, holy! All the saints adore thee,
casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
The twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:10, 11
So nobody will be wearing a crown in Heaven..
only Jesus the King of Kings..
Those ELDERS thought themselves unworthy to wear one in the midst of Jesus..
and yet look at the blasphemy of the mormons favorite song that they sing about Joey Smith..
“Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.”
“crowned” ???? By whom ??? Jesus ???
What ugly paganism...
What blasphemy..
Perhaps you should tell the truth about Carthage. Hyrum was not armed. Joseph had a pepper box. Wow. I guess it was perfectly fine for those wonderful protestants to shoot down those dirty Mormons while they were IN JAIL on trumped up charges.
That’s not what I’m debating (or at least attempting to). I’m debating your attempt at moral equivalency. And I’m done, because you keep going back to same track. No use continuing because you won’t address or answer any question or topic posed to you. I guess ignoring and deflecting the salient parts of the discussion becomes part of the tactics.
Oh, and a big BTW, I’m leaving the lds church after 15 years because of this very reason, they won’t answer direct and honest questions.
So I’m not a “protester” as you so aptly put it, I’m an apostate, a jack mormon, an “associate” who would cause you to lose your temple recommend for associating with me.
Good day.
SZ
OMM...
If you were Joey Smith, what would you have done about William Law and the others, and the Nauvoo Expositor ???
Well, since he didn’t murder them, it’s a moot point. A happy protester lynch mob murdered Joseph and Hyrum. Murder. Blood revenge of the protesters!
Obviously not much of a mormon to begin with since you state some pretty obvious falsehoods. You seem hell bent on making some great moral distinction between murder and murder depending on body count. My position is that murder is despicable no matter who pulls the trigger or what the body count. Get over it. If you can’t understand that truth you do need to leave the Church.
OMM...
If you were Joey Smith, what would you have done about William Law and the others, and the Nauvoo Expositor ???
So, you're telling us if a prison guard had it in for you, you'd tried to shoot your way out of custody, eh? (And here, we thought you were an adherent of D&C 134: 3,8: We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the laws of the same...We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense; that murder, TREASON, robbery, theft, and THE BREACH OF THE GENERAL PEACE, IN ALL RESPECTS, SHOULD BE PUNISHED ACCORDING TO THEIR CRIMINALITY AND THEIR TENDENCY TO EVIL AMONG MEN, by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed; and for the public peace and tranquility ALL MEN SHOULD STEP FORWARD AND USE THEIR ABILITY IN BRINGING OFFENDERS against good laws to punishment.)
I mean, come on, Logo...
You don't think laws vs. destruction of private property are “evil,” do you?
You don't think laws protecting suppression of the First Amendment/free press are “evil,” do you?
Surely you don't think laws vs. corrupt politicians who utilize martial law and the city's judicial system to protect themselves from prosecution are wrong, do you?
And you don't think it was a "who-dun-it?" mystery as to who ordered the destruction of the printing press to begin with, do you?
On the other hand, some of my conservative friends here seem to be advocating the death penalty—without trial—for the destruction of private property.
We need to consider the context of what, in part, was motivating the mob:
“The fact that the city's judicial system shielded JS from prosecution provoked charges that he had placed himself above the law.” (p. 180) [Milton V. Backman, Jr. & Ronald K. Esplin, “History of the Church: 1831-1844” Church History: Selections from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism edited by Daniel H. Ludlow]
These mob members thought Smith, who had already designated himself as a “king” and a U.S. President wanna-be, was placing himself 100% above the law. And you know what, Lds still place Joseph Smith “above the law” in writings ever since his death. How do they do that? They label his arrest as:
“unfounded charge of riot” (Lds Church, Teaching of the Presidents, p. 529)
“falsely charged with treason” (p. 530)
Lds “prophet” Joseph Fielding Smith in Essentials in History labeled it as “false imprisonment” (p. 311)
So, what Logo...you join the chorus in saying Joseph Smith was above the law?
Do you go against the conservative principle of Lex Rex – the Law is King – vs. the King is King?
You claim that printing presses in Nauvoo, 1844 just happened to self-destruct on their own?
Or martial law was unnecessarily implemented in Nauvoo in 1844 minus the mayoral go-ahead?
I dare you to call your church leaders "liars" or badly mistaken in their published claims that the "riot" charge was an "unfounded" one. ('Cause the Lds leadership was making this published claim in 2007)
Making character assessments now are we OMM? How becoming.
You seem hell bent on making some great moral distinction between murder and murder depending on body count.
No, that's what you're doing. Justifying the wholesale slaughter of innocent men, women and children because a couple of murders occured 19 years earlier. I asked you about the body count, does it equalize? Was it enough to satisfy the blood atonement demanded for joseph smith's murder.
My position is that murder is despicable no matter who pulls the trigger or what the body count.
I never denied or condoned any of the actions. I asked some simple questions.
state some pretty obvious falsehoods.
I posted the truth, no "falsehoods". I researched my information, didn't take the spoon fed version.
Get over it.
You are the one who can't get over it. You are the one who continues to try and draw a moral equivalency to the separate events.
If you can’t understand that truth
I've been asking for the truth, can't get it out of anyone within the church or on this site for that matter. Where do you suggest one go if their "leaders" won't answer?
you do need to leave the Church
Roger WILCO!!!
SZ
McKeever, nor I, made up Smith's quote that Lds "prophets" since and Lds published books are fond of repeating numerous times in just a single chapter -- like the 2007 book by The Church of 'jesus christ' of Latter-day Saints "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith":
John Taylor, who was with Smith when he died & later became named an Lds "prophet": “he said: 'I am going like a lamb to the slaughter...' shall it be said tot he slaughter? Yes, for so it was...” (p. 536)
George Albert Smith, 8th pres of the church: “he said, 'I am going like a lamb to the slaughter...” (p. 538)
Here's another Lds "prophet" -- Joseph Fielding Smith citing what Joseph Smith reportedly said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am as calm as a summer's morning.” (Essentials in Church History, by Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 310)
Logo...I respect you, but why is obvious messianic connection singularly obvious only with us? Where do you think this term going "as a lamb to the slaughter" originated? (Isaiah 53). And what is Isaiah 53 all about? (Joseph Smith? Or the Messiah?):
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter... (Isaiah 53:7)
Smith and his followers are starkly calling him the "Lamb." Do you think that was the only Messianic-like statement Lds "prophets" and contemporary church publishers like to highlight re: Smith?
Well, how about this one -- from the same 2007 Lds church book on The Presidents: “I am ready to be offered a sacrifice for this people...” (Joseph Smith, June 1844, p. 531)
I will be as clear as possible: The Latter-day Saints do not regard Joseph Smith as the Messiah;... [Logophile]
Well, let's see...I've counted so far THREE Messianic-like references to Joseph Smith by the Lds church in 2007 within 7 published pages...no, wait, let's make that four references:
Lds "prophet" John Taylor: “Hyrum Smith...Joseph Smith...henceforward their names will be classed among the martyrs of religion;...cost the best blood of the nineteenth century to bring them forth FOR THE SALVATION OF THE RUINED WORLD...” -- John Taylor (p. 536)
I mean what, Logo? Are you telling us you don't tow the Joseph Smith/Lds "prophet"/Lds party line that Smith was a...
...sacrificial lamb?
..."offered" [as] "a sacrifice for this people"?
...martyred "for the salvation of the ruined world"?
...we do not worship Joseph Smith; we do not believe Joseph Smith is the equal of Jesus Christ...But we are clear that Jesus Christ is the Master and Joseph Smith the servant. [Logophile]
Oh, wait. Let's make that five Messianic-like references to Smith within seven published pages...this one clearly highlights Smith's own "Messianic complex" he was holding 3-4 months before his death
“I have had sealed upon my head every key, every power, every principle of life and salvation that God has ever given to ANY man who ever lived upon the face of the earth...addressing the Twelve, 'I have sealed upon your heads every key, every power, and every principle which the Lord has sealed upon my head.' (Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff, p. 532)
(Do you somehow miss the obvious tie between Jesus authorizing the Twelve and Joseph authorizing the Twelve? Did you miss Joseph saying...
...whatever key Jesus had, Joseph had...
...whatever power Jesus had, Joseph had...
...whatever principle Jesus had, Joseph had...
...or do your eyes just glaze over when you read: ...that God has ever given to ANY man who ever lived upon the face of the earth... -- and somehow NOT think that Joseph was directly comparing himself to Jesus Christ?????)
Let's add on another Smith Messianic complex reference for good measure, as Brigham Young said Joseph not only made that statement in March of 1844...but did so "often": How often has Joseph said to the Twelve, 'I have laid the foundation and you must build thereon, for upon your shoulders the kingdom rests.” (p. 535)
I'm sorry. But I testify to you that Joseph Smith isn't the "foundation" of the church as Brigham said. Paul said Jesus is the cornerstone (1 Pet. 2:6; Eph. 2:20). Smith is still stealing glory from Jesus.
I'm sorry. But I testify to you that Jesus Christ is the one who said "ALL authority on heaven and earth has been given to me..." (Matthew 28:18) -- and Jesus has never dealt that authority away...Derived authority doesn't mean stolen authority. When the people deputize a deputy, the authority still rests in the people.
I'm sorry. But I testify to you that Joseph wasn't Jesus. He didn't have every power...of life and salvation that God has ever given to ANY man who ever lived upon the face of the earth.
I'm sorry. But I testify to you that Joseph wasn't Jesus. He didn't have every key...of life and salvation that God has ever given to ANY man who ever lived upon the face of the earth...
I'm sorry. But I testify to you that Joseph wasn't Jesus. He didn't have every principle...of life and salvation that God has ever given to ANY man who ever lived upon the face of the earth...
I call for Mormons everywhere to repent of this substitutionary idolatry of placing Joseph Smith in the stead of Jesus Christ!!! Repent! For the Kingdom of God is at hand!
...we do not worship Joseph Smith; we do not believe Joseph Smith is the equal of Jesus Christ...But we are clear that Jesus Christ is the Master and Joseph Smith the servant. [Logophile]
_________________________________________________
Log,
Funny you should say that...
You are disagreeing with your own Joey Smith...
He boasted (his word) that he was GREATER than Jesus..
He said the he was the top...
That NO MAN had ever got to where he was..
Wonder where that places Jesus ???
On May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith made the following statement in a public sermon (Brodie p 374, HC 6:408-412):
“Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
At this time he was secretly married to over 40 women, some of them wives of men still living. Many who knew of these secret marriages accused him of changing the doctrine of the church to satisfy his own carnal desires, in violation of the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:23-29, 3:5) and D&C 49:16.
AW Shucks looky what I just found...
“The Prophet did not believe that revelations, once recorded, could not be changed by further revelation.”
(Marlin K. Jensen from the article: The JS Papers; Ensign 7/2009 pp.47-51.)
MKJensen:”So, brother Joseph, you have had a lot of trouble getting revelations correct the first time, even though you were under the influence of the Holy Ghost?”
JSJr:”Yes, I had a lot of trouble with several revelations. But I fixed them and forgot to tell anyone.”
MKJensen:”For example?”
JSJr:”Well D&C 20 is totally hashed over to make it look like we had priesthood restoration, including high priests.”
(Anon)
Ever notice how MORMONs try to ignore the fact that Joseph and Hyrum were in jail for SOME reason?? Really, they should get over that blank spot in front of their eyes.
The PROTESTANTS killed them:
THEREFORE...
Mormonism MUST be true!!!
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
"If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph"
--Brigham Young
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
That's in YOUR mind; for the REST of us have not SEEN it.
DUH!
Nope; and He even stuck lopped off parts, back on heads.
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