No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[bdeaner]

The Pharisees thought their standing in the temple would save them, too.

Matthew 23: 1-3: 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

This passage demonstrates that Jesus told His disciples to respect those who have legitimate authority. He does not admonish the Pharisees for their positions of authority; on the contrary, he criticizes them for their hypocrisy -- for their failure to practice what they preached.

We have the same problem in the Catholic Church. The Church has been given the authority by Christ to operate as the instrumental means for salvation of all people. But we all fail to live up to what the Church institutes in Christ's name; we inveitably fall. And that is why Christ instituted the sacrament of confession, for the forgiveness of sins. This sacrament is a gratuitous gift of grace that we do not deserve nor merit, and yet He has blessed us with it nonetheless, praise be to God.

2 Corinthians 5:18
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

[Dr. Eckleburg]

legitimate authority.

The bishop of Rome and his magisterium have no "legitimate authority." They are on a par with false teachers.

[cva66snipe]

Dood I can't meditate. That's done been tried. I gave a disabling neurological impairment. I can play a guitar simply because it is automatic to me and it is acoustical not electric. I learned to play before this hit me. I've been through relaxation therapies you name it. If anything distracts me when I'm doing something that's it. If I try to read I have to concentrate and sometimes only a few minutes a day can I do it.

But who leadeth me beside those waters and restores my soul? Hum! Christ retreated alone sometimes and he encourage his followers to do the same.

[bdeaner]

We are spiritual beings and we are to worship and enjoy Him spiritually.

Yes, but you misunderstand what "spiritually" means for St. Paul in his letters. "Spiritually" does not mean 'without a body.' Christ came in the flesh; do not deny the Incarnation! EVERYTHING the Lord made, including our bodies, is GOOD, as we learn in Genesis. He loved our bodies so much He took a body for Himself. In Heaven, we will not be without bodies; on the contrary, the "Lord Jesus Christ...will transform our lowly bodies, so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil 3:20). Be careful lest you fall prey to the heresy of the Manicheans, who falsely believed that God does not utilize the physical to interact with us spiritually.

"Spiritually" for St. Paul means acting genuinely from within rather than just externally; not merely acting the part, but believing in it from the heart.

Romans 12:1
In view of God's mercy...offer your bodies...this is your spiritual act of worship.

The importance of incarnate reality, and its spiritual implications, are revealed simply by the fact that God cured our spiritual problem through a physical act of dying on the cross for us. Our spiritual fall required from God a physical solution. This was always the case if we follow salvation history back to the time before Christ. The OT demonstrates that physical atonement is ALWAYS required to address a sin against God -- but we now know that no physical atonement by man would ever be enough. Only Christ's sacrifice on the cross -- in the flesh -- could pay the price. But that does not make it a purely spiritual act -- it is an INCARNATE activity on the Lord's part.

More Scriptural evidence:

Romans 8:20
We...groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Hebrews 10:22:
Let us draw near to God with a sincere heart...and having our bodies washed with pure water.

1 Cor. 6:19-20
Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit...you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

1 Cor. 6:L15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ Himself?

The Scriptures overwhelmingly support the Catholic position with regard to enacting physically our spiritual sanctification.

[bdeaner]

The bishop of Rome and his magisterium have no "legitimate authority." They are on a par with false teachers.

Talk is cheap. You cannot demonstrate this statement without distorting scripture, tradition or history -- if not all of the above.

[Iscool]

Then you haven't run into John 6 or The Last Supper. If Christ says I'm a jelly doughnut, then I'm a jelly doughnut whether I look and taste like one or not.

Well you can certainly be a jelly doughnut if you want to...

Would you take Jesus literally if He said you are a refrigerator??? Or What if Jesus told you that you were an oak tree???

Problem with your jelly roll fantasy is that while Jesus said He was actual meat and drink, He not only didn't tell any of you how to turn a little cracker and a glass of wine into HIS flesh and blood but Jesus never told you to even attempt to try such a thing...

To deny Christ's authority to pronounce reality and existence is to deny his deity.

Riiiiight...You guys don't believe the gates of hell mean the gates of hell...You claim keys of the Kingdom of God mean power...

You don't believe a thousand years means a thousand years...You don't believe 'after his kind' means after his kind and a million other statements God said...So spare me the drama...

To ignore Christ's statements of John 6 and refuse to "interpret scripture by scripture" in understanding the events of The Last Supper is to deny the body and blood of Christ.

According to your religion's private interpretation of Scripture, maybe...How many times have you mocked the idea of comparing scripture with scripture???

[Semper Mark]

“You cannot demonstrate this without distorting scripture.”...

What scripture would that be?

[cva66snipe]

I couldn't be content with a theology that "works" even when God's participation is not necessary.

Without GOD's ongoing participation in my life and His interventions my life would not be where it is now and I don't mean that it would be a good thing because it wouldn't. Because of Him and only because of Him I can do what I need to do everyday and can do it. A three cord rope is not easily broken especially when GOD binds it together. That rope in my case has been strained pretty darn hard too. By the Grace of GOD it's held.

Be content where GOD has placed and called you to be. That place may not be the one you expect and you may not understand the reasons you are placed there till much later on. Others may not understand why you even do it :>} He will not forsake or abandon you and will answer prays even as they are said if needed.

I need no more proof than what I've been show and experienced. I've seen things happen that no one had hope for a good outcome to happen. But FAITH MOVES MOUNTAINS and acting in faith is the first step. Or as the song goes Trust and Obey.

[bdeaner]

What scripture would that be? The Bible! What did you think I meant? The Tao Te Ching? ;)

[Semper Mark]

No, what scripture disqualifies his statement?

[bdeaner]

It's funny that you are suddenly admitting to the problem of Scripture interpreting itself. You've just made an excellent argument refuting sola Scriptura. I'm glad to see you are finally seeing the light.

[Iscool]

No, it is a voluntary vow taken by men who want to become priests.

Can a man who wants to become a priest and who doesn't want to make a voluntary vow on your celibacy rule still become a priest??? If not, it is then not voluntary...It's a requirement...

[Iscool]

<>The translation is perfectly fine.

You just said the translation was faulty...Make up your mind...

However, in English the phrase "shed blood" has two possible meanings.

Nope...Shed blood has one meaning...It means blood leaving a body...

Whether it is used as a verb or a noun or whose blood it is depends on how it's used in the context of the sentence or chapter it resides in...And it doesn't matter what language you read it in...

If you understand the context, you will know all you need to know about the shed blood...You certainly don't need a new translation of shed blood...

[Iscool]

Christ chose unmarried Apostles, all men.

C'mon Petronski...Open a bible and 'really' learn something about Jesus...

[Semper Mark]

Matthew 16

Jesus asked, ...”who say ye that I am?”

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him,
Blessed art thou Simon Bar-jona; for flesh and blood
hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.

And I say unto thee, that thou art Petros, and upon this Petra I will build My church; And I will give unto thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The context of these scriptures weren't about Peter, they were about Christ and who He was and is.

Christ wasn't saying that He would build His church on the shaky sinful man, Peter. He was saying that He would build His church on the bedrock truth that He is the Christ, the Son the living God. This truth was given to Peter by divine revelation.

Simon Bar-jona, who Christ only a few verses later called Satan, and who also denied Christ three times, an act of cowardice, did later become a great man of faith and was used of God mightily. But Christ did not build a church on him.

Christ's church is built on Himself, His person, and His finished work on the cross. If someone were to tell Peter that Christ had built His church on him, that rough old two fisted fisherman would smack them in the mouth.

An omniscient, omnipresent, Holy God, doesn't rely on, or build anything on sinful man.

The keys of the kingdom are the Gospel of Christ, “The Good News”, for this is what saves mens souls.

The Gospel is: That Christ died on the cross under the penalty of our sins, He was buried, and He rose again on the third day.

[Iscool]

On the other hand, the Protestants on this forum all go after Catholics with a vengeance, not saying you all are necessarily doing that, and yet none of you all ever state what Protestant Traditon you belong to as I think if you all were to do that, we would see that your theological differences are many, yet the one thing that unites you all on this forum is your crticism of Catholic Doctrine.

That's because we have a commonality...We may not agree on some details but we are basically in unity as it comes to salvation, as Jesus desired...

Your religion as compared with us is so far out behind the barn, that I for one, can see no possible unity...

It is your religious leader who said your religion has far more in common with Izlam than it does with Protestantism...

Most Protestants are my brothers/sisters in Christ...Muzlims and those who worship the same god they do are not my brothers in Christ...

Therefore, we try to get you guys to 'come out from among the darkness' and learn the ways of Jesus...

[driftdiver]

“I don’t know of any Catholic that claims a priest is equal to Christ. “

I’ve met numerous and if you’ve read this thread there are some very prominent ones as well. From post 144

THE AMAZING GIFT OF THE PRIESTHOOD.
by Father Kenneth Baker

“...Simply stated, the Catholic priest is another Christ. Through his ordination he has been granted the amazing gift of being a channel of divine grace for the eternal salvation of those he come into contact with — both in his official ministry and in his personal life...”

“I think you are terribly mistaken if you believe that or, also, some Catholic who believes that is obviously clueless,”

I dunno, what does the title Father mean to Catholics?

As I’ve said, I’ve met several catholics who believed this because that is what they were taught.

[driftdiver]

“Really? Where does the scripture say that?”

Of course it doesn’t say the word simple but it does give quite clear instructions one a few short steps. It is simple but not easy. Not easy because of our individual pride and unwillingness to give ourselves up.

[driftdiver]

“Sola Scriptura is a self-refuting doctrine. “

As opposed to a man made doctrine?

[Iscool]

Well, all salvation is from Christ, through the Church, which is his body.

Some things you are missing here...Most Protestants get their theology from the scriptures, only...As a result, they pour over the scriptures for truth and understanding...The bible is the 'final authority' for all matters of faith and practice...

Your religion on the other hand, relies on the writings and opinions of it's old and newer church fathers and tries to make the scriptures line up with those things that you call tradition...

Those that spend even a little time in the scriptures know that the Body of Christ is made up of believers...And ONLY believers...

It would be ignorant to say that all Catholics are believers, or all Protestants are believers...Therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE that your religion is the Body of Christ...

Secondly, any honest student of the scriptures know that salvation does not come from the Body of Christ (the believers)...It comes from the Head, Jesus Christ...It is biblical IMPOSSIBLE that salvation comes from your church thru your religion...

So, yes Christ has given the Catholic Church, along with the Orthodox Church, the fullness of the means of salvation via the Sacraments or what the East refers to as the Holy Mysteries.

Again, this is not only a lie, it comes from the Father of Lies...

There are no Holy Mysteries...The mysteries that were spoken of by the apostles have been revealed...They are no longer mysteries...

Your's is just a catch-phrase to make your church sound spiritual, religious...Nothing biblical about it...