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No Salvation Outside the Church
Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner



Why does the Catholic Church teach that there is "no salvation outside the Church"? Doesn’t this contradict Scripture? God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Peter proclaimed to the Sanhedrin, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Since God intends (plans, wills) that every human being should go to heaven, doesn’t the Church’s teaching greatly restrict the scope of God’s redemption? Does the Church mean—as Protestants and (I suspect) many Catholics believe—that only members of the Catholic Church can be saved?

That is what a priest in Boston, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J., began teaching in the 1940s. His bishop and the Vatican tried to convince him that his interpretation of the Church’s teaching was wrong. He so persisted in his error that he was finally excommunicated, but by God’s mercy, he was reconciled to the Church before he died in 1978.

In correcting Fr. Feeney in 1949, the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) issued a document entitled Suprema Haec Sacra, which stated that "extra ecclesiam, nulla salus" (outside the Church, no salvation) is "an infallible statement." But, it added, "this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church itself understands it."

Note that word dogma. This teaching has been proclaimed by, among others, Pope Pelagius in 585, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1214, Pope Innocent III in 1214, Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Dominus Iesus.

Our point is this: When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings.

Work Out Your Salvation

There are two distinct dimensions of Jesus Christ’s redemption. Objective redemption is what Jesus Christ has accomplished once for all in his life, death, resurrection, and ascension: the redemption of the whole universe. Yet the benefits of that redemption have to be applied unceasingly to Christ’s members throughout their lives. This is subjective redemption. If the benefits of Christ’s redemption are not applied to individuals, they have no share in his objective redemption. Redemption in an individual is an ongoing process. "Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling; for God is at work in you" (Phil. 2:12–13).

How does Jesus Christ work out his redemption in individuals? Through his mystical body. When I was a Protestant, I (like Protestants in general) believed that the phrase "mystical body of Christ" was essentially a metaphor. For Catholics, the phrase is literal truth.

Here’s why: To fulfill his Messianic mission, Jesus Christ took on a human body from his Mother. He lived a natural life in that body. He redeemed the world through that body and no other means. Since his Ascension and until the end of history, Jesus lives on earth in his supernatural body, the body of his members, his mystical body. Having used his physical body to redeem the world, Christ now uses his mystical body to dispense "the divine fruits of the Redemption" (Mystici Corporis 31).

The Church: His Body

What is this mystical body? The true Church of Jesus Christ, not some invisible reality composed of true believers, as the Reformers insisted. In the first public proclamation of the gospel by Peter at Pentecost, he did not invite his listeners to simply align themselves spiritually with other true believers. He summoned them into a society, the Church, which Christ had established. Only by answering that call could they be rescued from the "crooked generation" (Acts 2:40) to which they belonged and be saved.

Paul, at the time of his conversion, had never seen Jesus. Yet recall how Jesus identified himself with his Church when he spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus: "Why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4, emphasis added) and "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting" (Acts 9:5). Years later, writing to Timothy, Paul ruefully admitted that he had persecuted Jesus by persecuting his Church. He expressed gratitude for Christ appointing him an apostle, "though I formerly b.asphemed and persecuted and insulted him" (1 Tim. 1:13).

The Second Vatican Council says that the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church and the mystical body of Christ "form one complex reality that comes together from a human and a divine element" (Lumen Gentium 8). The Church is "the fullness of him [Christ] who fills all in all" (Eph. 1:23). Now that Jesus has accomplished objective redemption, the "plan of mystery hidden for ages in God" is "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Eph. 3:9–10).

According to John Paul II, in order to properly understand the Church’s teaching about its role in Christ’s scheme of salvation, two truths must be held together: "the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all humanity" and "the necessity of the Church for salvation" (Redemptoris Missio 18). John Paul taught us that the Church is "the seed, sign, and instrument" of God’s kingdom and referred several times to Vatican II’s designation of the Catholic Church as the "universal sacrament of salvation":

"The Church is the sacrament of salvation for all humankind, and her activity is not limited only to those who accept her message" (RM 20).

"Christ won the Church for himself at the price of his own blood and made the Church his co-worker in the salvation of the world. . . . He carries out his mission through her" (RM 9).

In an address to the plenary assembly of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (January 28, 2000), John Paul stated, "The Lord Jesus . . . established his Church as a saving reality: as his body, through which he himself accomplishes salvation in history." He then quoted Vatican II’s teaching that the Church is necessary for salvation.

In 2000 the CDF issued Dominus Iesus, a response to widespread attempts to dilute the Church’s teaching about our Lord and about itself. The English subtitle is itself significant: "On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church." It simply means that Jesus Christ and his Church are indivisible. He is universal Savior who always works through his Church:

The only Savior . . . constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: He himself is in the Church and the Church is in him. . . . Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord (DI 18).

Indeed, Christ and the Church "constitute a single ‘whole Christ’" (DI 16). In Christ, God has made known his will that "the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity" (DI 22). The Catholic Church, therefore, "has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being" (DI 20).

The key elements of revelation that together undergird extra ecclesiam, nulla salus are these: (1) Jesus Christ is the universal Savior. (2) He has constituted his Church as his mystical body on earth through which he dispenses salvation to the world. (3) He always works through it—though in countless instances outside its visible boundaries. Recall John Paul’s words about the Church quoted above: "Her activity is not limited only to those who accept its message."

Not of this Fold

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has never taught that. So where does that leave non-Catholics and non-Christians?

Jesus told his followers, "I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16). After his Resurrection, Jesus gave the threefold command to Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:15–17). The word translated as "tend" (poimaine) means "to direct" or "to superintend"—in other words, "to govern." So although there are sheep that are not of Christ’s fold, it is through the Church that they are able to receive his salvation.

People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).

Obviously, it is not their ignorance that enables them to be saved. Ignorance excuses only lack of knowledge. That which opens the salvation of Christ to them is their conscious effort, under grace, to serve God as well as they can on the basis of the best information they have about him.

The Church speaks of "implicit desire" or "longing" that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with "a sincere heart." In that seeking they are "related" to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:

They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

The Catholic Church is "the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time" (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, "though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat." And when they eat of it, "without knowing it or willing it" they are "incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church."

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR



Fr. Ray Ryland, a convert and former Episcopal priest, holds a Ph.D. in theology from Marquette University and is a contributing editor to This Rock. He writes from Steubenville, Ohio, where he lives with his wife, Ruth.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; church; cult; pope; salvation
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To: bdeaner; Marysecretary

“Just reading the words here, it seems pretty simple and straightforward that works are necessary for salvation, and not just faith.”

What is necessary for salvation is that we be born again.

John 3: “3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

What happens when we are born again?

Ephesians 2: “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

When we are born again, we are born to a new life of imitating Christ.

Romans 6: “1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life...

9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.”

So there is no conflict between faith and good works. Salvation involves our dying with Christ, and becoming a new creation, “..created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

The only conflict in the clear meaning of scripture is when someone reads one or two verses, out of context, and then tries to apply just those verses.

And the correct response to someone who claims faith frees him from doing good is found, not in the Catholic Catechism, or in the teachings of a Pope, but in the clear teaching provided for us in the Bible.

As it was summarized in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith:

“1.7 Not all things in Scripture are equally plain in themselves, nor equally clear to everyone. Yet those things that are essential to be known, believed and obeyed for salvation are so clearly set forth and explained in one place of Scripture or another, that not only the educated but also the uneducated may attain a satisfactory understanding of them by using ordinary means.”


561 posted on 06/29/2009 7:11:24 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Iscool

“It is usually made clear that those non-Catholics who claim they have received Jesus as their Saviour but reject the notion that the Catholic religion is the one, true, blah, blah, blah, are not participants or recipients of the salvation that Jesus Christ offers... “

I believe that was the teaching of the Catholic Church prior to Vatican 2. Since then, their teaching has become a bit more blurred. This, in turn, was an amazing discovery after nearly 2000 years...


562 posted on 06/29/2009 7:13:49 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
What is necessary for salvation is that we be born again.

In John 3:3-6, Christ says it is necessary, but He does not say it is sufficient.

563 posted on 06/29/2009 7:14:18 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: bdeaner
"In this regard, we should be reminded of Christ's own words: "For by the fruit the tree is known." (Matt. 12:33). By this standard, the historical testimony afforded by Protestantism demonstrates that the tree of Sola Scriptura is producing bad fruit."

Matthew 13:

"24 He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

"But this problem of doctrinal incoherence is resolved if there is ONE, singular teaching authority to which Christians can appeal. And there is really no other Church other than the Catholic Church that can be Biblically and Apostolically linked to a teaching authority provided directly by Christ, to serve as the "pillar and ground of truth."

I spent some time last night reading about the history of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has had multiple Popes at one time, bitter fighting (with folks killed) between factions, Popes excommunicating Popes...its record as a single teaching authority is very spotty, to say the least.

564 posted on 06/29/2009 7:27:38 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: papertyger

“So remind me again of the protestant excuse for taking the thrice mentioned “born again” literally, while figuratively understanding “this is my body” ...mentioned five times. “

I’ve NEVER met a Protestant who believes in taking ‘born again’ literally. The only one I ever heard of taking it literally was Nicodemus: “4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”


565 posted on 06/29/2009 7:31:05 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Iscool
It's posts like this that set the tone for discussion...

You have got to be kidding me. YOU are preaching to ME about setting a tone for discussion? HAHAHAHAH!!!!

All translations have ambiguities in them that often are not captured by the original translators at the time. Get over it.
566 posted on 06/29/2009 7:40:27 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: papertyger

“Where does scripture say to interpret scripture by scripture?”

Most adults interpret ANY writing as a whole. If I want to know what the author thinks, I need to read the ENTIRE book.

It isn’t Protestant doctrine, just the way adults behave in trying to understand the author’s intent.


567 posted on 06/29/2009 7:40:45 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: papertyger

“No stranger than how protestants deny the body and blood of Christ.”

No Protestant does that. We DO deny that wine is turned into blood by a priest, or that bread becomes actual flesh, or that Christ is sacrificed repeatedly.


568 posted on 06/29/2009 7:43:31 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Marysecretary
First, you can’t take a verse out of context. Read what the chapter is saying. Then see what the whole counsel of God has to say about faith and/or works. Anyone can build a religion out of a verse without considering what the rest of God’s Word has to say about that subject.

So then you admit, the words of the Bible are not "simple and straightforward." They must be read within a hermeneutic context, which includes a set of presuppositions, which includes the entire Scriptures, the cultural context within which they were written, the original language within which they were written and translated, etc etc. So please don't pretend that Protestants do not have presuppositions when they read the Bible, or that discerning the truth in any given verse is a simple matter of reading what's there in front of you. When it comes to interpretating the Bible, Protestants have as much tradition as Catholics did, yet many choose to act as if they don't. That's bad faith.
569 posted on 06/29/2009 7:50:37 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: papertyger; Markos33

Psalms 57: “ 1 Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me,
for in you my soul takes refuge;
in the shadow of your wings I will take refuge,
till the storms of destruction pass by.”

In this verse, we learn God is a chicken...


570 posted on 06/29/2009 7:52:18 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: papertyger
Unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood, there is no life in you.

Where in the Bible do you find the requirement for Communion in order to be saved?

571 posted on 06/29/2009 7:53:10 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Iscool
Some of these people are so crooked they probably have to screw their socks on in the morning...

I see you are "setting a tone for discussion" here....

In empirical studies in forensics, insulting an opponent in a debate has been shown to discredit the message of the debator. The audience tends to perceive it as a failure of the communicator to mount an otherwise reasonable defense of his or her position, instead resorting to irrational, ad hominem attacks. They are right.
572 posted on 06/29/2009 7:55:39 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Quix
No one has the power to countermand Christ

Certainly, the Catholic Church would be in complete agreement with you on this.

nor to make of a political, bureaucratic, pile of stinking human power mongering

No question these problems are pervasive in any and all human institutions. The Catholic Church is no exception! And I think any honest Catholic would be lying if they said otherwise. HOWEVER, that does not take away from the Catholic Church's authority with regard to it's role in preserving and teaching the Deposit of Faith through the Magisterium -- which is an authority not personally merited by any person who composes these offices, but rather that authority which can only be gratuitously granted through the power of the Holy Spirit sent by Our Lord. In spite of the corruption of the people who compose the Magisterium, we believe, due to Christ's promises in Scripture, the Holy Spirit nevertheless guides the Church IN SPITE OF IT'S SINFUL MEMBERS, to teach TRUTH.

Beyond that: Reading Vatican II, the Catholic Church has basically said that ANYWHERE ANYONE teaches what is objectively TRUE of Our Lord and is guided by the Holy Spirit, THEY BELONG TO THE CHURCH! This is really the message of the post re: the meaning of "No Salvation Outside of the Church," which was clarified by the Vatican II ecumenical council. It is a remarkable and historical clarification by the Magisterium with regard to the meaning of "Church." I think it's a shame that this message has gotten lost in a lot of the flame wars going on in these posts on this thread, but oh well...
573 posted on 06/29/2009 8:09:57 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Quix
No one has the power to countermand Christ

Certainly, the Catholic Church would be in complete agreement with you on this.

nor to make of a political, bureaucratic, pile of stinking human power mongering

No question these problems are pervasive in any and all human institutions. The Catholic Church is no exception! And I think any honest Catholic would be lying if they said otherwise. HOWEVER, that does not take away from the Catholic Church's authority with regard to it's role in preserving and teaching the Deposit of Faith through the Magisterium -- which is an authority not personally merited by any person who composes these offices, but rather that authority which can only be gratuitously granted through the power of the Holy Spirit sent by Our Lord. In spite of the corruption of the people who compose the Magisterium, we believe, due to Christ's promises in Scripture, the Holy Spirit nevertheless guides the Church IN SPITE OF IT'S SINFUL MEMBERS, to teach TRUTH.

Beyond that: Reading Vatican II, the Catholic Church has basically said that ANYWHERE ANYONE teaches what is objectively TRUE of Our Lord and is guided by the Holy Spirit, THEY BELONG TO THE CHURCH! This is really the message of the post re: the meaning of "No Salvation Outside of the Church," which was clarified by the Vatican II ecumenical council. It is a remarkable and historical clarification by the Magisterium with regard to the meaning of "Church." I think it's a shame that this message has gotten lost in a lot of the flame wars going on in these posts on this thread, but oh well...
574 posted on 06/29/2009 8:11:17 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Petronski
"In John 3:3-6, Christ says it [being born again] is necessary, but He does not say it is sufficient."

Romans 6 - in its entirety, to make it clearer...

"1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

575 posted on 06/29/2009 8:13:12 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

This is just a test. Please ignore. I am having trouble posting for some reason.


576 posted on 06/29/2009 8:14:58 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Petronski

Beyond being born again, what is required of Petronski for eternal life?


577 posted on 06/29/2009 8:18:29 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Amen, Mr. Rogers, and thanks.


578 posted on 06/29/2009 8:20:44 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

The Bible also tells us that God fashioned certain good works for us to do. We need to be seeking THOSE particular good works by listening to the Holy Spirit. Where does He want us to go? What does He want us to do when we get there? To whom does He want us to minister? What missions does he want us involved with? The list goes on. Salvation by faith HAS to come first so the Holy Spirit can teach us these things.


579 posted on 06/29/2009 8:24:59 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Petronski

I won’t answer your mindless posts, Petronski. bye bye


580 posted on 06/29/2009 8:28:19 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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