Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner
DING!
No matter how far off Arius may have been, he wouldn't have been within miles of your religion's private and error laden interpretations of scripture...
The quality of your posts is beginning to ramp upward. Three or four in a row now with no anti-Catholic lies.
DING!
driftdiver:
Thanks and no problem, I appreciate the intellectual honesty you have, once provided with the facts and evidence, to realilze that the Catholic Church is the “Catholic Church” and “Roman Catholic” only in Church canon law applies the the Western half of Catholicism, which non-Catholics, and to be honest, some less than well informed Catholics, think describes the entire Catholic Church.
Regards
And thats where I take issue. Jesus came and gave his life for our sins. He is our mediator to God. Nothing else is needed.
So for a man to say you must seek through and can only receive salvation through a man is false in my mind.
And of course I’m not in full communion with the Church. That being your Catholic (or Roman Catholic) Church. Why deal with a handicapped middle man and not the Man himself?
Good thing you never seek the help (by asking the prayers) of handicapped middlemen among your family and friends.
Straight to Christ and nothing else.
***Jesus saves***
And He passes up to Moses on the left wing past the defense; Moses skates down in a two on one with David; Moses fakes a shot and passes over to David; he shoots, HE SCORES!!!!
***The Church mentioned by Christ is not the Catholic Church***
Yes, it is.
***I’m not part of the Catholic church and my salvation is not dependent on anyones interpretation of the Word.***
If you don’t understand what Jesus said, how can you be saved?
driftdiver:
In no place does Catholic Theology ever state that salvation comes through a man, salvation is the work of the Holy Trinity and is accomplished through the paschal mystery of Christ. Sacraments, in Catholic Theology are the normative means that God gives us Grace, and as such are celebrated rightly in the Church, which is Christ’s body. So Christ, who is head of the Church, sanctifies those of us incorporated into his body [i.e. the Church], via the Sacraments/Holy Mysteries, as the East calls them
So, how does the Catholic Church affirm the repeated teaching of the Church Fathers, that the outside of the Church, there is no salvation. The Catholic Church’s understanding of the Church (i.e. its ecclesiology) is linked to its Theology about God. The Holy Trinity reveals the nature of God, which is God is a God of perfect communion and love and relationship. The Father eternally generates the Son and the Son returns of the love of the Father and the bond of love is the Holy Spirit. The second person of the Trinity, Christ, became incarnate (i.e. Christ has a fully human and divine nature) and founded a Church (see, Mt 16) which St. Paul describes as the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim 3: 15). The Church is described by St. Paul as the body of Christ (1 Cor 12: 12-14), the Bride of Christ (Eph 5: 26-27) and by St. Peter as the People of God (1 Pet 2: 9-10). So using the typological reference of the Old Testament, where God says the Jewish People are his people, the Church understoodo, with reference to the person of Christ, is the instrument tht God uses to gather all people into a communion with the Holy Trinity. Since Christ has one Body, and One Bride, and one people, and since God is a God of perfect communion (Holy Trinity), the Church then is ontologically also one.
So again, the Catholic Church’s doctrine of the nature of the Church is tied to its theology of God (Trinity), and its theology about Christ (Christology). Christ, who is A Divine Person, who through the incarnation has a fully human nature along with his Divine Nature then, again, has implications for the Doctrine of the Church as Christ’s Body (c.f. 1 Cor 12:12-14) and thus from Catholic Theology, the Church is both a visible and spiritual community of faith, hope and charity which Christ communicates Truth and Grace to all men (see Catechism of the Catholic Church 771). Thus, the Church, in Christ, the Head of the Body [The Church], is like a sacrament, a sign and instrument of communion with God and thus is Christ’s instrument for salvation for all people.
In the early Church, the Church Fathers saw the Church as the means of salvation as it was often stated that outside of the Church, there was no salvation. For example, St. Irenaeus of Lyons [140 to 202 AD] writes:
“In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace” (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]; cited from Fr. Jurgen’s The Faith of the Early Fathers Vol. 1).
Origen [182 to 254AD] in his Commentaries on the Book of Joshua (ca 249-251 AD) writes [again cited from Fr. Jurgen’s Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol..1]:
“If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death”
St. Cyprian of Carthage, writing in 250 AD would write “He cannot have God as is Father and not have the Church as his mother.” The Catholic Church still holds to this doctrine and re-formulates is in a positive fashion by stating “All salvation comes from Christ, the Head through the Church which is his body” (see Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 846).
So, from the Catholic perspective, it is Catholic Church, as Christ Body, that is endowed by Christ as the fullest means of Grace [i.e. 7 Sacraments] for the justification and sanctification of humanity. So, Christ is bound to the sacraments and thus the fullness of salvation is found in the Catholic Church.
I think the issue you may be having is what happens to those who are not fully in communion with the Catholic Church. Those who are baptized into the Holy Trinity, outside of visible communion with the Catholic Church are incorporated into the Holy Trinity and thus are in some communion with the Catholic Church.
While the fullness of salvation is found in the Catholic Church given all 7 sacraments [Orthodox have the 7 Holy Mysteries as well], thus while Christ is bound to the sacraments, which are the normative means of Grace, Christ is not bound by them [see Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 1257] and thus in ways known to God alone, God’s Grace can still is available. Again, this idea is in line with the Apostolic Tradition of the early Church. It was Tertullian, writing as an orthodox Catholic around 200 AD [he later embraced the Montanist heresy] that there is a baptism of blood [martyrdom] which is like the sacrament of Baptism. St. Augustine writing in City of God would state that we have a second laver, which is a laver of blood. He goes on to state that whoever dies from confessing Christ without the laver of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of the persons sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of Baptism (City of God, Book 13, Chapter 7). St. Augustine also spoke of a “baptism of desire”.
So, in closing from the Catholic perspective, God has acted in History and through history through the revelation of God through Christ Jesus. Thus, the sacraments, nature of the Church, Liturgy and Worship are bound to the reality of the Incarnation of Christ, which took place in the context of the Roman-Greco world in the 1st century and thus how the Doctrines related to sacraments, the nature of the Church, etc were understood by the early Church Fathers is foundational for Catholics. Accordingly, from the Catholic perspective, the notion that an individual should seek to find a community that fits him are work with others to create a community to fit ones views is, in my humble opinion, a deconstructist/Marxist notion that history is to be rejected, because it is based on outdated values, philosophies, etc, and thus we can re-create a new community and world. I think this is going on in many Protestant communities, and was embraced in some Catholic circles as a political liberation theology [which was rejected outright by Pope John Paul II].
For example, Pope Benedict cites Psalm 104, which mentions bread, wine and oil. Of course, these elements are the matter used in Catholic sacraments and Pope Benedict responds to the criticism that these elements make sense in the Mediterranean and other elements should be used in other cultures and regions. As such, as Pope Benedict writes, “God has acted in history and through history and given the gifts of the earth [Bread, wine, oil] their significance. The elements become the sacraments through connection with the unique history of God in relation to Christ…..Incarnation does not mean doing as we please. On the contrary, it bounds us to the history of a particular time and while outwardly, that history might seem fortuitous, it is the form of history willed by God and for us it is the trustworthy trace he has imprinted on the earth, the guarantee that we are not thinking up things for ourselves but are truly touched by God and come into touch with him [Spirit of the Liturgy, p. 224]
So taking Pope Benedict’s point further, the sacraments are rightly celebrated in the Church, which was founded by Christ, and as his body, is the instrument that God uses to save humanity and thus, since the Church is Christ’s body, outside of it, there is no salvation. Looking at it from a different angle, all who are saved are saved by Christ and brought into his body, which is the Church.
So, I hope my post, in some way, at least gives you the Catholic perspective, with cites to Catholic authoritative sources, to better help you understand why the Catholic Church affirms “outside of the Church, there is no salvation”
Regards and God’s peace
968 - Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509
Like I said, how do people fall for this stuff???
I realize many are born into it but what of the rest??? Actually we know the answer...These are folks who honestly think they can be good enough to get to heaven on their own...They have not been brought to the place where they have figured out that only God is righteous...And only God CAN be righteous...That His righteousness was given to us as a gift because no matter what we do, we will never measure up...
Amen to that...The Father of Lies at work...
As I did as well...I use that maneuver on some of the people at my work...lol
Nope, you're a Roman Catholic. In the common vernacular, a Roman Catholic is a Catholic who follows the Pope, rather than a Eastern Catholic who follows the Patriarch.
The term "Roman" modifies Catholic to indicate one who follows the Pope who sits in the Vatican inside Rome.
You want to play little word games to deflect from the facts you cannot address...
That included who? Peter perhaps? The Chosen Twelve after the death of Christ for years were not doing what they were told and had to be corrected among them Peter who was told to accept the Gentiles. Paul was the actual organizer of Roman Churches much more than Peter. The Chosen Twelve had many differences and disputes amongst themselves as did others like Paul and Barnabas.
The Disciples after Christ went into the heavens were not doing what they were told to do in The Great Commission thus came the persecution to scatter the flock. The disagreements also scattered the flock. Disagreements that were not Blasphemy but rather personal ones as to even individual beliefs. Jesus Himself settled the question of which followers were right when His chosen Twelve were JEALOUS {note that event} over another sect casting out demons and healing people in Jesus name and they asked Christ if they should make the stop. What was His answer to them.
There is the answer to to Orange and Green jealousy which is all it actually is JELOUSY. It is as much a jealousy as the Gentile vs the Jewish. Paul had a teaching on that jealousy and why it was to be so. Churches need to stop wasting precious time and strength trying to convert each other to each others churches. That fight is 2000 years old and will not be settled until all are united as one when Christ comes for His chosen to take them.
But these debates do serve a useful purpose though. They make a person sharpen up on their reading of scripture which is good and take stock of their own beliefs and faith in Christ which is also good. Be careful though not to weaken the faith of one less able to handle such or has the measure of faith ourselves or others may have. These debates should not be aimed at making one fall in their beliefs where GOD through the Holy Spirit has placed them. If GOD wants Catholic to be Baptist or Pentecostals to be Methodist and vice versa that is HIS sovereign business not ours. Work in the laboring field where GOD has placed you. If He has need of you elsewhere He Himself vis The Holy Spirit will guide you there and not man.
When I say I'm not, over and over, and you disagree, YOU are the one who is wrong.
It IS interesting to see how many people resort to throwing the term "Roman Catholic" like an accusation, though. That's been informative.
...the Vatican inside Rome.
Vatican City is an independent city-state. It is not part of Rome.
Who are the Eastern Orthodox?
And you do realize that to get to the Vatican (where I have been), one must first go through Rome, right?
The Vatican is located within Rome; that is the physical location. Protestations notwithstanding!
But back to a question posed earlier that you have refused to answer: what is the Biblical basis for the papacy? Either the succession or the ability to speak ex cathedra? Either part...
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