No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[Semper Mark]

“So what?”

“for this man is to Me a vessel of election, to carry My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.”

[kosta50]

“for this man is to Me a vessel of election, to carry My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.”

But how do you KNOW that this is true?

[cva66snipe]

Bye Troll. Go play judge over someone elses life.

[papertyger]

How easy to defend when you don't know the first thing about the circumstances. My MOTHER was the Catholic. They were married by a CATHOLIC priest. Father initiated divorce, step-mother also got divorced. My mom was the one who was not contacted about the annulment quest even though we all knew where she was living. Priest contacted for the annulment didn't bother to try to contact her. She has never remarried. Care to rethink your knee-jerk response!

Oh my! Was that supposed to be your "Matlock moment?"

I'm not here to justify what may or may not be irregularities with your father's annulment, but did you ever ask him what the grounds for granting the annulment were?

Even so, believe it or not, parents are not always candid with their children. My own mother sang the song of abandonment through my entire childhood. It was only when I asked my father that I learned his reasoning *and* the fact he left knowing full well he'd be sent to Viet Nam if he did.

[papertyger]

If it walks like a duck...

[Iscool]

Impressive. In other words, because Paul says so in the Bible? And how do you know what's in the Bible is true? Wait, let me guess—because Paul says so, right? And how do you know what Paul says is true? Wait, I get it—because it's in the Bible! Right!?

The only "start" I see from your array of verses here is a beginning of circular reasoning...

Some guys named Matthew, Mark and John claim they wrote down what Jesus had to say...Why is it you believe them but not Paul???

Why do you quote/post bible verses if you don't think or are not convinced they are true???

Is that the position of your church as well??? They figure Paul maybe made a lot of stuff up??? Or maybe Paul never even existed???

Maybe there is no adoption of Gentiles into the church....Why do you even call yourselves Christians when you don't even believe the Christian Bible???

How do you know Jesus really said, 'Eat my flesh'??? You go thru that ritual just in case???

You ask for evidence...I give it to you and you say how do I know the bible is true...

Well what makes you a Christian???

You use Paul's statement that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth...And now you say you don't even know if Paul really ever said that...How can you even be sure there's a God???

[WVKayaker]

Our Roman Catholic brethren can't believe their lying eyes!

Luke 16: 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " ...

...

Luke 20: 1 ... Then Jesus said to them, "How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? 42David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
43until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." ' 44David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"

45While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, 46"Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 47They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." ...

...

Romans 8: 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. -

-with love, Jesus and Paul

[Iscool]

Interesting picture...Why do you figure 2 men are holding the pope’s clothes, while he’s wearing them...They each have a hand over their hearts...

Looks to be a ‘Royal’ performance for the onlookers...

Knowing what we know about Peter, can you imagine Peter dressing up in a get-up like that???

[WVKayaker]

In a prior post, I quoted Jesus talking about calling any man "father". Yet, the latin word for their political leader means exactly that.

They can't see the forest for the trees. In this case, the trees wear robes and tell people how to act and what to believe, upon penalty of "excommunication"

I am so glad that we have a merciful God, a true Father. I am so grateful we have His human life, suffering, and death as a substitution for us, though we are the ones found GUILTY. I thank Him daily thaat through His resurrection, God empowers us with His Holy Spirit. Without the indwelling Sprit, we are indeed lost.

The Roman Catholics have repeatedly thanked me for posting these pictures showing the wealth of their organization, and laud the the Pope, the leader of their society. Jesus was very clear on those types, as I posted.

But, God, in His wisdom gave us this Spirit for a reason. Like Paul, we are to seek His will for our lives. Will we be able to do all that He requires. NO! But, His promises don't depend on us, or membership in good standing, of ANY so-called organized church. WE are the church, and ONLY in Him, will we have power...

Romans 8: 12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. ...

37 ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[sonic109]

The Church is one way that Christ may be revealed to pre-Christians but it is NOT the only way.

I agree ,much of Church doctrine is man made and not God made.

[papertyger]

Judas always complains about the money.

[papertyger]

Knowing what we know about Peter, can you imagine Peter dressing up in a get-up like that???

Absolutely!

[papertyger]

They can't see the forest for the trees.

And you can?

Tell you what, you pray for winning lottery numbers "in Jesus' name," then tell others what they can and cannot see.

God empowers us with His Holy Spirit.

To do what? Tell everyone how "saved" we are? You don't need God to do that. All you need is a big ego.

Now if you want to be set free from the law of sin and death after you get saved, you need to eat his flesh and drink his blood...at least in my experience.

But, God, in His wisdom gave us this Spirit for a reason.

Is that the spirit that leads you into all truth, but leads others into different all truths?

[papertyger]

The Church is one way that Christ may be revealed to pre-Christians but it is NOT the only way.

And you know that, how?

I agree ,much of Church doctrine is man made and not God made.

What do you expect when a man is given "the keys?"

That's how it's *supposed* to work. You think God drafts a memo or something?

Or is what you mean by "man made" really just that it doesn't meet your approval?

[Petronski]

The Holy Spirit reveals different, mutually-exclusive truths to different souls all the time, donchaknow.

[papertyger]

Frankly, I’m always horrified by the idea of godly evangelicals tortured by their enslavement to sin, never realizing it’s because THEY AREN’T DOING WHAT HE TOLD THEM TO DO.

[WVKayaker]

Knowing what we know about Peter, can you imagine Peter dressing up in a get-up like that???

The Romans Catholics not only approve, they gloat about it. They love to display their wealth, and those that make note of it are called Judas. The Romann Catholics, led by their "priests", are the Pharisee's of today. My Priest is Jesus, and I am a joint heir with Him, by adoption.

Mark 6: Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. 7 Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits.

8 These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9 Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. ...

They are therefore equating Jesus as a traitor, as was Judas. Wealth is anathema to God. The Roman Catholic church hoards it, while the poor still lay by the gate. Paul assures us that Jesus is God... Hmmmm...

8 "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

10 "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11 So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?

13 "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. ...

...

Romans 3: 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded...

Peter's alleged progeny needs a little more, I guess! Bulletproof glass and lots of security guys... just like Jesus said, NOT!

[kosta50]

Some guys named Matthew, Mark and John claim they wrote down what Jesus had to say

They never claimed that. The oldest fragments of the Gospels are anonymous. It was almost two centuries later that the Church added "According to [kata].... (adding the name of the Apostle who supposedly wrote each book).

...Why is it you believe them but not Paul???

I am not the one who is making any claims as regards the authenticity of their writings. But there is a huge difference between the Gospels and Pauline epistles. For one, Paul is the judge and the jury. No witnesses to corroborate his claims. At least the Gospels have some degree of internal agreement.

I would imagine that, assuming the Gospels are records of eyewitnesses (and that can be debated), they represent God in person, and not "experienced" in some internal inspiration. It's one thing to say "Jesus said before all..." and another to say "I saw a vision..."

Why do you quote/post bible verses if you don't think or are not convinced they are true???

I don't quote the Bible to prove the verses are true. I quote them because they are in context of the discussion. Besides, that's the only language some recognize, so what else will I quote to them?

Is that the position of your church as well??? They figure Paul maybe made a lot of stuff up??? Or maybe Paul never even existed???

I don't speak for any church or the Church. I just ask how do you know that what Paul says is "God-inspired."

Maybe there is no adoption of Gentiles into the church....Why do you even call yourselves Christians when you don't even believe the Christian Bible???

You are not answering my question, Iscool. Instead you are asking me questions! I simply asked how do you know that what Paul said is inspired, and you gave me a bunch of verses, and then I asked you how do you know what the verses say is true, and your response is asking me questions! I made no definitive statements as regards Paul or the Bible.

I simply asked how do you know what you claim as fact. So, if you don't mind, let's try to stay on track.

How do you know Jesus really said, 'Eat my flesh'??? You go thru that ritual just in case???

I don't. That's why I asked you because you seem to claim you do.

You ask for evidence...I give it to you and you say how do I know the bible is true...

Wouldn't you ask for evidence if someone said "I saw pink unicorns on Jupiter?" And you didn't give me evidence, you gave me the Bible! So, I asked you, okay, how do you know what the Bible says is true...and you find that strange? If you say "this is good for you" and I ask you how do you know it is, and instead of an answer you ask me "and how do you know it isn't?"! That's just plain wrong, but it's telling me that you really don't know...

You think it's strange to ask how does one know what he claims to know? I find that strange!

Well what makes you a Christian???

I didn't say I am. What makes you a Christian? It can't be knowledge because so far you gave me nothing to indicate how do you KNOW these things. Again, I made no statements, just asked questions. Instead of telling me how do you know you are asking me questions!

You use Paul's statement that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth...And now you say you don't even know if Paul really ever said that...

I said that? Where? As far as I know, at least seven of Paul's thirteen Epistles are written by someone who calls himself Paul. I don't dispute that. But I don't see why I should consider what he wrote to be God-breathed. You seem to think it is, so I asked you how do you know and you give me the Bible! So, then, how do you know the Bible is God-inspired? because Paul said so, right? Wrong.

Circular reasoning is no proof, Iscool. You can't say Paul is inspired because the Bible says so, and then say the Bible is true because it is the word of God because Paul is speaking God's words, which are in the Bible...

How can you even be sure there's a God???

Obviously I am not the one making definitive statements. But you do. So, asking me questions is silly because if I knew, as you claim you do, why would I be asking you questions!?! So tell me , how do you know that God does exist, and how do you know what you claim to know is really God?

[cva66snipe]

Last word to try to get you to understand. If you can't understand this then no one can reach you. I'm very certain your Priest understands this passage abd could explain it to you.

Luke ch 18 9Then Jesus told this story to some who had great self-confidence and scorned everyone else: 10“Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a dishonest tax collector. 11The proud Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there! For I never cheat, I don’t sin, I don’t commit adultery, 12I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’ 13“But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ 14I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For the proud will be humbled, but the humble will be honored.”

[papertyger]

These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9 Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. ...

He also told them to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel on that trip.

Are you new at this?