Posted on 06/27/2009 10:33:55 PM PDT by bdeaner
Me, too, hallelujah. What a Saviour!
No, do you?
Sorry, but purgatory does not exist. It’s one of your church fairy tales.
Let's not forget, the Catholic scripture is the LXX...And it was written by man...
“the Catholic scripture is the LXX...And it was written by man...”
Translated. Not written.
The marks are always the last to know.
“If the Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures, why not also the Councils? Is that such a stretch? “
Jesus had a very low view of “tradition” versus Scripture. If you haven’t done so, I urge you to look us all instances of the word “tradition” in the Gospels. Tradition, unlike Scripture is easily subject to human modification.
Have you considered the changeableness of tradition in your own Church? 50 years ago is would have been a mortal sin for you to eat meat on Friday. If you had eaten meant and died before confession you would go to hell for that. This was a solid Catholic tradition. Now, of course, that has changed. Traditions can change and shift and move. Scripture, being in black and white is much more difficult to openly modify.
In the end, it is an issue of authority. Who has the final authority... the Word of God or human beings?
In John 3, Christ tells us that we need to be baptized with water to be born again into the Spirit, but He does not say this is sufficient for salvation. It's necessary, but not sufficient.
Play the tape: "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Here is what it does NOT say: "Whoever believes in him and receives the sacraments and agrees the Pope is supreme and does enough good works to build up an account of merit is not condemned, but whoever does not believe, or only believes stands condemned already because he has not done enough good in the name of God's one and only Son."
John 1: "12 Yet to who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
All means all. And those who are born again are born, not "of human decision or a husband's will", but "born of God". I'll leave it to you to decide if God can finish what He has started.
Galatians 4: "6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you."
God has made you an heir, bdeaner. Not will, not might, but HAS - if you have truly believed. WE do not know who has truly believed, and those who fake it. Sometimes we doubt ourselves, let alone others! And believing isn't an emotion, but an act. You may or may not feel much like a Son of God, but you are - or are not. That is between you and God.
1 Peter 1: "23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you."
1 John 3: "9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." & John 5 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him."
If you are born again, the Spirit of God calls you to holiness. It isn't instant - "who are being made holy" - but it IS certain, knowing "that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
You quote Matthew 5:20: For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Yes, and he also said, "27 You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
Now, unless Jesus meant that virtually every man should be blind and hand-less by the age of 15, there must be something more to this teaching.
I think the Sermon on the Mount is telling us how we must live, IF WE WOULD LIVE BY THE LAW! Jesus says "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago...", and then he takes the Law and bumps it up to a higher and even more impossible level.
In Matthew 25, Jesus says, "34Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
Notice, they didn't even know they were doing good! If you have been born again, the Spirit Himself leads you to do good. You do it, not so you can be accepted, or to lay up merit, but because you cannot imagine doing anything else. I don't give to charity because I want to impress God, but because I couldn't live with myself if I did not.
I believe Marysecretary answered for Luke 18:18-25 (the rich young ruler). Jesus didn't tell his disciples to do that, nor does he tell us to do that - but he told the rich man to do so, since he knew that THIS was the area the rich man would not give over to God. That is why I use 'born again' instead of 'invite Jesus into your life'. We aren't called to gain a friend, but to die and become a new creation.
1 Corinthians 5 says, "17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ [note: God does the work, and reconciliation is in the past] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
There is no conflict between faith and good works, because faith makes us new creatures who do good works. Without faith, our works are meaningless. With faith, works become inevitable.
From the Confession of Faith:
16.6 Yet, although believers are accepted as individual people through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Christ. It is not as though in this life they were entirely blameless and beyond censure in God's sight, but that he looks upon them in his Son, and is pleased to accept and reward what is sincere, even though it is accompanied by many weaknesses and imperfections.
16.7 As for works done by the unregenerate, even though in essence they may be things which God commands, and may be beneficial both to themselves and others, yet they remain sinful works because they do not proceed from a heart purified by faith, nor are they done in a right manner according to the Word, nor is their purpose the glory of God. Therefore such works cannot please God nor make a person acceptable to receive grace from God. Yet the neglect of such works is even more sinful and displeasing to God."
You write: "Catholics say that such a one has lost the state of grace through mortal sin, whereas most evangelicals contend that they were likely never saved at all." The difference is that evangelicals believe that we are born again, and are new creatures, sons of God by the will of God, and He will finish what He has started. This seems entirely in line with scripture. Wheat and tares, friend.
Matthew 13: "24 He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"
The wheat doesn't become a tare, but the tares will be separated from the wheat at the end of time. But they were ALWAYS tares. They were planted tares (weeds, in the more modern translations), they remained tares, and the tares were thrown into the furnace. But the wheat stayed wheat. No wheat became tares by losing the state of grace through mortal sin. The tares were ALWAYS tares.
Hey - I’m gone for the night. I am enjoying our conversation and would be glad to pick it back up again should you be willing. I just didn’t want to seem rude by not replying again this evening. Have a good one!
Good grief. If there was a purgatory, God would have said purgatory in His Word, which is THE authority.
My precious husband was a Catholic all his life until he was born again. He said it was like a weight off his shoulders to know that God’s grace didn’t leave him when he sinned and he could just go to the Lord, repent of his sins and be cleansed and forgiven. What a difference that made in his life.
I’ve ordered The Early Church ($6.50 including shipping from Amazon), and have bookmarked The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine: Vol 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600)...$15.64.
However, I need to build a horse shelter this week, so I’m going to fall behind in all the books FReepers have recommended for me...
Markos33:
From your last statement, it seems to me that you are Reformed, and I will admist that some Catholic posters here (and I have sometimes done this myself), lump all Protestants into the same confession. I have stated many times that Lutherans, Traditional-Anglicans and Reformed-Calvinist Protestants are easier to discuss in the context that one can grasp the theological tradition one is comming from.
I have stated this in the past that “it seems to many (including me)” that Protestants start with St. Paul and interpret Christ and the Gospels from that context. This, from the Catholic perspective, is incorrect. The Catechism of the Catholic Church correctly points out how the Sacred Scriptures should be interpreted, that is with Christ as the reference point, and how the Bible was interpreted throughout Christian History.” I still hold to that position as most of the Protestant literature that one sees (and I have only lived in 3 states in the Southern U.S.), does in fact start with St. Paul and usually calls it the “Roman Road of salvation” The passage that most often starts the Protestant view of justification is Romans 3:28-30; and it is usually complemented by passages from Galatians and Ephesians
I think your quotes from the NT support my thesis above. As Pope Benedict points out in his reflection on the Apostles Creed entitled “Introduction to Christianity” notes that Christology and the Doctrine of Redemption must be rooted in the person of Christ Jesus and thus Christology.
The view you are stating, i.e. talking about debts, if I am not mistaken, is and extension of Anselms [1033 to 1109] theology which was entirely a Theology of the Cross and is very one-sided as it states that Christ had to die to repair an infinite offense, and thus while Anselm does state that Grace saves, he also talks about justification as a restoration of a right, etc. In sum, Anselm’s view becomes rigid and mechanical and in fact there is no mention of God is Love (c.f. 1 John 5:16] in his theology. It is correct only to a point in what it affirms, but the problem is what it seems to deny or not mention at all.
Catholic doctrine of justification is rooted in Christology, and thus links the Theology of Incarnation along with the Theology of the Cross. Accordingly, I think it is accurateto say that Catholic theology does not make it an Incarnation Theology vs. Cross-Theology. Catholic Doctrine, all of it, connects the Doctrine of Incarnation with the Doctrine of the Cross. Sacraments are tied to both Incarnation and the Paschal Mystery (Passion, Death, Resurrection, etc).
Pope Benedict’s great quote from his book Jesus of Nazareth where the Pope links Incarnation and Cross Together illustrates this point nicely:
Pope Benedict states “In this Chapter (Chapter 8 on the images in St. John’s Gospel) the theology of Incarnation and the Theology of the Cross come together; the two cannot be separated. There are thus no grounds for setting up and opposition between Easter theology of the Synoptics and St. Paul, on one hand, and St. John’s supposedly purely Incarnational theology, on the other. For the goal of the Word’s becoming-flesh spoken of by the prologue is precisely the offering of his body on the Cross, which the sacrament makes accessible to us”
So Catholic doctrine develops everything from the person of Christ, and links Incarnation to the paschal mystery (Passion, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension) and all of Christ’s teachings in between Incarnation and Paschal mystery.
The Catholic Doctrine of justification (soteriology) again is anchored on the person of Christ, Incarnation, life/teachings, and paschal mystery. We become united with God by his Grace, through his son Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The process of “Theosis” starts at Baptism where the CCC states the Baptized person has become a New Creature, (see CCC para. 1265). So the purpose of the Incarnation is to restore the image of man when God created him. So, here is a point that both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox doctrine part ways with much of the Protestant theology on the “nature of humanity”. In Genesis, God created man and woman in his image. So, humans were created in the Divine image (c.f. Gen 1:27). God looked at his creation, which included man and woman and found it “very good” (c.f. Gen 1: 31). Of course we see in Genesis chapter 3, the fall of man.
Of course, this fall was not part of God’s plan that death and sin would enter the world. Thus, if you go back to Gen 1:27, God created us in “the Divine image”, one can see that death and sin are not part of our nature and not part of God’s plan. Because of original sin (Genesis Chapter 3), sin and death entered the world and those are attacks on our “true nature” that God originally created. So, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology does not use “sinful nature” for this is rooted in one of Calvin’s 5 Points called “Totally Depraved” or man is totally evil. Rather, Catholic’s see man as “wounded by original sin and fallen from the original stature he had in Genesis 1”, but not totally sinful and not Totally depraved.
So through the Incarnation, Christ takes on our full human nature, only without sin, and through his passion, death, and resurrection, Christ restores/transforms humanity back into the original “Divine image” (c.f. Gen 1:27) that we were originally created. This is how Catholics and Eastern Orthodox understand Justification/Salvation, as oppose to the Legalist/forensic/imputed salvation/justification of the Calvinistic theology.
So from this context, the passages in the Gospels where Christ commands man to live in faith and love become part of the Catholic doctrine of justification, which are all due to God’s Grace, which is consisent with St. Paul’s teachings of faith working through love (c.f. Gal 5:6) and also St. Paul speaking of Faith, Hope and Love, of which Love is the greatest (c.f. 1 Cor 13:13). For example, the parables of the wise and foolish builders (c.f. Mt 7:24-27); the two sons (c.f. Mt 21:28-32); the good Samaritan (c.f. Lk 10-25-37); the talents (c.f. Mt 25:14-30, the sheep and the goats (c.f. Mt 25:31-46), Love of God and Neighbor (c.f. Matt 22:39; Mk 12:29-31), keeping God’s commandments (c.f. Luke 6:46-47), which is love of God and neighbor, if you Love Christ you will keep his commandments and also love one another (John 14:15-21), Christ teaching on the beatitudes, which goes beyond just intellectual faith (c.f. Matt 5: 2-11), and I can go on and on. In addittion, the New Testament epistles also speak of Love of God and Neighbor (c.f. 1 John 5:16-21; 1 Pet 1:22), consistent with the commands of Christ himself.
And again, all of what I documented above, faith itself and the ability to live a life of Love and charity, are possible only because of God’s gift of Grace(see CCC link below for more discussion if interested)
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.shtml
I know of no marks.
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