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To: bdeaner; Marysecretary; Alamo-Girl; PugetSoundSoldier; Petronski; bronxville; driftdiver; ...
Let me respond to post 1546 now...

In John 3, Christ tells us that we need to be baptized with water to be born again into the Spirit, but He does not say this is sufficient for salvation. It's necessary, but not sufficient.

Play the tape: "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Here is what it does NOT say: "Whoever believes in him and receives the sacraments and agrees the Pope is supreme and does enough good works to build up an account of merit is not condemned, but whoever does not believe, or only believes stands condemned already because he has not done enough good in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 1: "12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

All means all. And those who are born again are born, not "of human decision or a husband's will", but "born of God". I'll leave it to you to decide if God can finish what He has started.

Galatians 4: "6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you."

God has made you an heir, bdeaner. Not will, not might, but HAS - if you have truly believed. WE do not know who has truly believed, and those who fake it. Sometimes we doubt ourselves, let alone others! And believing isn't an emotion, but an act. You may or may not feel much like a Son of God, but you are - or are not. That is between you and God.

1 Peter 1: "23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you."

1 John 3: "9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." & John 5 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him."

If you are born again, the Spirit of God calls you to holiness. It isn't instant - "who are being made holy" - but it IS certain, knowing "that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

You quote Matthew 5:20: For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Yes, and he also said, "27 You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

Now, unless Jesus meant that virtually every man should be blind and hand-less by the age of 15, there must be something more to this teaching.

I think the Sermon on the Mount is telling us how we must live, IF WE WOULD LIVE BY THE LAW! Jesus says "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago...", and then he takes the Law and bumps it up to a higher and even more impossible level.

In Matthew 25, Jesus says, "34Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

Notice, they didn't even know they were doing good! If you have been born again, the Spirit Himself leads you to do good. You do it, not so you can be accepted, or to lay up merit, but because you cannot imagine doing anything else. I don't give to charity because I want to impress God, but because I couldn't live with myself if I did not.

I believe Marysecretary answered for Luke 18:18-25 (the rich young ruler). Jesus didn't tell his disciples to do that, nor does he tell us to do that - but he told the rich man to do so, since he knew that THIS was the area the rich man would not give over to God. That is why I use 'born again' instead of 'invite Jesus into your life'. We aren't called to gain a friend, but to die and become a new creation.

1 Corinthians 5 says, "17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ [note: God does the work, and reconciliation is in the past] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

There is no conflict between faith and good works, because faith makes us new creatures who do good works. Without faith, our works are meaningless. With faith, works become inevitable.

From the Confession of Faith:
16.6 Yet, although believers are accepted as individual people through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Christ. It is not as though in this life they were entirely blameless and beyond censure in God's sight, but that he looks upon them in his Son, and is pleased to accept and reward what is sincere, even though it is accompanied by many weaknesses and imperfections.

16.7 As for works done by the unregenerate, even though in essence they may be things which God commands, and may be beneficial both to themselves and others, yet they remain sinful works because they do not proceed from a heart purified by faith, nor are they done in a right manner according to the Word, nor is their purpose the glory of God. Therefore such works cannot please God nor make a person acceptable to receive grace from God. Yet the neglect of such works is even more sinful and displeasing to God."

You write: "Catholics say that such a one has lost the state of grace through mortal sin, whereas most evangelicals contend that they were likely never saved at all." The difference is that evangelicals believe that we are born again, and are new creatures, sons of God by the will of God, and He will finish what He has started. This seems entirely in line with scripture. Wheat and tares, friend.

Matthew 13: "24 He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

The wheat doesn't become a tare, but the tares will be separated from the wheat at the end of time. But they were ALWAYS tares. They were planted tares (weeds, in the more modern translations), they remained tares, and the tares were thrown into the furnace. But the wheat stayed wheat. No wheat became tares by losing the state of grace through mortal sin. The tares were ALWAYS tares.

1,590 posted on 07/02/2009 8:40:10 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

My precious husband was a Catholic all his life until he was born again. He said it was like a weight off his shoulders to know that God’s grace didn’t leave him when he sinned and he could just go to the Lord, repent of his sins and be cleansed and forgiven. What a difference that made in his life.


1,595 posted on 07/02/2009 8:59:43 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Mr Rogers; bdeaner; Marysecretary; Iscool
Thank you so very much for sharing your testimony, your insights and especially those beautiful Scriptures, dear brother in Christ!

I only have two points to add.

First, only those who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit are His adopted children. Notice the first verse also testifies of the Trinity: Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. - Romans 8:15

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

The second point concerns the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus commands us to "be" perfect. We cannot "do" or "think" or "say" perfect things. But we can "be" perfect by abiding in Him because He is perfect.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. - Matthew 5:44-48

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:1-5

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

1,609 posted on 07/02/2009 9:41:42 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Mr Rogers
...12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God...

It does not say "all who received Him become the children of God," but rather "...to all who received Him...He gave the right to become children of God."

Not automatic.

Faith AND works.

1,624 posted on 07/03/2009 4:05:52 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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