Pope alarmed by decline in confessions

TimesOnline ^ | 6/19/09 | Richard Owen

[SkyDancer]

Don't know what you're talking about. If the Bible says for us to confess our sins one to another, it doesn't say to go to some priest or whatever or whoever ... we confess our sins to God and He forgives ...we acknowledge our sins to fellow Christians. BTW - what is the definition of sin anyway? Who decides outside of the Bible's definition what sin is? To Jews, sin means simply you could have done good for God but didn't ...

[bdeaner]

I do appreciate your kind words and your ecumenical spirit. Clearly I see value in conversing with other people from other denominations of Christianity, otherwise I would not be on this forum having these discussion. I could go elsewhere and talk exclusively among Catholics.

Most of my family are Protestants -- many of them converted from Catholicism to Protestantism of one sort of another, back when I was a child. My parents divorced, and my mother married a very anti-Catholic Presbyterian, who has basically told me I cannot enter his house now that I am Catholic. My mother claims to be Catholic still, but neither of them attend church services, and my stepfather would not tolerate my mother going to Catholic Mass.

My father goes to a non-denominational, fundamentalist church with his girlfriend, but still has fondness for the Catholic Church, in which he was raised. He verbally supports my Catholic faith, but I think secretly worries about it, or has problems about it that he will not tell me directly. He hates confrontation, so he will avoid discussing anything uncomfortable. That's just the way he is, God bless him.

Interestingly, my grandparents on both sides were all strong Catholics. Three of them are dead; I still have one living grandmother. So, for me, there is a heritage there. My parents rejected that heritage, but it seems to have skipped a generation to me. I'm an only child, incidently. My parents used contraceptives. ;)

I worry the most about my mother, because I feel that, at heart, she is a Catholic, but she cannot practice because she is married to an ogre who is an anti-Catholic bigot. Either that, or my mother is lying to me about still being Catholic, which is possible. She is unfortunately very corrupted by webs of deception, both self-deception and deception of others. I pray for her deliverance from deception.

Long story short -- I have a lot of people I love who are Protestants. If they die today, do I really believe they will go to hell just because they are Protestants? Of course not. And neither does the Church. The Lord is merciful as well as just.

God bless.

[bdeaner]

we acknowledge our sins to fellow Christians

Do you acknowledge your sins to your fellow Christians? Be honest now.

When I was an Evangelical Christian, before my conversion to Catholicism, NO ONE EVER CONFESSED THEIR SINS at my Church. Never happened.

[SkyDancer]

Confessing 'sins' as in the Catholic church is a private thing, right? Then why in 1 Timothy 5:20 it says those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. Reprimand those leaders who sin. Do it in front of ... ...

(private to a priest in a confessional?). Define the word 'sin'. How many are listed in the NT? I'm not talking about what the Catholic church says is sin. They have all sorts of non-Biblical sins.

[bdeaner]

BTW - what is the definition of sin anyway?

You don't believe there are objective moral truths?

Sin is an offence against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is a failure in genuine love for God and neighbour caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It has been defined by St Augustine as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."

Sin is an offence against God. Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods," knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to the contempt of God."

[SkyDancer]

No, the definition of sin is: Not doing good when you could have; think about that.

We're to use the Bible as our moral guide; popes, ministers, priests, bishops, cardinals, whoever are mortals. They can come up with all sorts of 'moral' guides they want but it's based on what they belive, not what's in the Bible ... that's why the Catholic church forbade the reading of the Bible by the common people under penalty of torture and death .... they set the 'sin' rules ....

[bdeaner]

1 Timothy 5:20
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

The key words here are "continue in sin." These are people who refuse to reconcile to the Church. So, they are rebuked publically because they refuse private reconciliation and/or refuse to change their sinful ways.

If you look at this passage in the context of the entire NT, it becomes evident that reconcilation or confession is otherwise a one-on-one affair. See, for example, James 5:16.

There are some practical reasons for doing this with a priest. For one, the priest has a professional obligation, and takes a supernaturally binding oath, to keep all confessions confidential, even under penalty of law. That's much more secure than attorney-client privilege! We can't get that kind of security of confidence from just any fellow Christian. Moreoever, the priest 'stands in for' or represents Christ, so that going to this person in the confessional--especially when, otherwise, one is behind a screen and the person of the priest does not know your identity--it is like speaking directly to Chirst in the flesh and hearing his forgiveness through the flesh of the priest. From personal experience, there is an amazing grace that comes from this sacrament! When I go to confession, my whole body is filled with the heat of the Holy Spirit -- something you might be familiar with, if you have ever gone down in the spirit or been baptized in the holy spirit. (Note: I'm a charismatic Catholic).

In Matt. 9:6, we learn that the sacrament of confession is rooted in the mission God gave to Chirst in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins. When the croews witnessed the power of reconciliation, they saw that it gloried God, who had given authority to men (Matt. 9:8). Afer his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers. These ministers, who have been given the "ministry of reconciliation" (cf. 2 Cor 5:18f) have always been the Bishops and Priests of the Catholic Church, as seen in the writings of the early Christian Fathers and ecclesiastical writers (whenever there is ambiguity in the scriptures, the early fathers can help us clarify how we should interpret the scriptures):

ORIGEN (c. 244 AD)

In addition to these [kinds of forgiveness of sins], albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins THROUGH PENANCE...when he [the sinner] does not shrink from DECLARING HIS SIN TO A PRIEST OF THE LORD AND FROM SEEKING MEDICINE....In this way there is fulfilled that too, which the Apostle James says: "If, then, there is anyone sick, let him call the PRESBYTERS [where we get PRIESTS] of the Church, and let them impose hands upon him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and if he be in SINS, THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM [James 5:14-15; cf. John 20:21-23]." (Hom on Leviticus 2:4)

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 250 AD)

Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who...CONFESS THEIR SINS TO THE PRIESTS OF GOD in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience....Indeed, he but sins the more if, thinking that God is like man, he believes that he can escape the punishment of his crime by not openly admitting his crime....I beseech you, brethren, LET EVERYONE WHO HAS SINNED CONFESS HIS SIN while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, WHILE THE SATISFACTION AND REMISSION MADE THROUGH THE PRIEST ARE STILL PLEASING BEFORE THE LORD. (The Lapsed 28)

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (c. 387 AD)

Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed" [Matt 18:18]. Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? "Whose sins you shall forgive," he says, "they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" [John 20:23]. What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [cf. Matt 9:8; 10:40; John 20:21]. (The Priesthood 3:5)

AUGUSTINE (c. 395 AD)

When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted....But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out....In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance. (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15; 8:16).

Yet, contrary to our Lord's desire (John 20:21-23; cf. James 5:14-16; 1 John 1:9) and the unanimous teaching and practice of the early Church, Fundamentalist or Evangelical Protestants have reduced Christianity to a purely "spiritual" religion. In this, they deny the significance of the Incarnation. They unwittingly deny that the Church is the Body of Christ, an extension of His very Incarnation based on the "one flesh" relationship between Christ and His Bride (Ephesians 5:25-32).

God bless.

[SkyDancer]

But yet there is no definition of the word ‘sin’ ... different Christian denominations say this or that is a sin (other than what’s mentioned in the Bible). They’re making rules not Biblical. Then of course they add different values to their ‘sin’. Some are worse than others (?). If you ‘sin’ in either thought, word or deed you’re guilty. You don’t reconcile to the “Church” you reconcile to God.

[SkyDancer]

...add: Make that to “a church” not “the church” ....

[stevio]

Yea, the sacrament of reconciliation is an unburdening experience. Having a Holy Man for a priest helps a lot too.

[bdeaner]

Do you guys also annoint your priests with ointment and wash their feet with your tears and dry their feet with your hair???

By the way -- yes, priests get annointed with oil, as do we all at the Sacrament of Confirmation. But we do not wash their feet. During Holy Week, before Easter however, the priests do wash OUR feet, as Christ washed the feet of His apostles. Actually, they wash the feet of the catechumin (those new to the Church).

[stuartcr]

What if some people view the eternal differently? How would it be defined?

[goat granny]

You have led an interesting life, its sad to have someone in the family that is so anti-catholic. I don't understand that just as I don't understand anti-semitism.

Many people will consider themselves catholic even tho they are not practicing their religion, don't worry about her as only God knows her heart..Just pray with confidence in His way of doing things..

God's blessings on you and yours...GG I cannot understand people who want to change the Catholic church to suit their personal beliefs either...

The church has male priests, if someone wants female priest, let them leave and go to a different church. Same goes for abortion and other Catholic dogma...These so called catholics that make all kinds of trouble for the church and still say they are catholic are nothing but fools and troublemakers...

[nina0113]

So, they are rebuked publically because they refuse private reconciliation and/or refuse to change their sinful ways.

Jim Moran, one of Virginia's pro-abort politicians got rebuked publicly (in the vestibule, not at Mass) by a priest and advised NOT to present himself for Communion. One of my co-workers was arriving for that Mass and saw it. Wish I had! Though I'd probably lose so much grace by gloating that I wouldn't have been able to present myself either.

[boatbums]

once a person is baptized as a Catholic you ARE ALWAYS a Catholic.

I did not have any choice in the matter seeing as how I was an INFANT! There is no infant baptism mentioned in scripture. Instead, we are given the example through Christ's baptism by John the Baptist that it is an outward act for what has happened inside our hearts. The purpose is to give a testimony that have been washed spiritually and we are now walking in 'newness of life' after our acceptance of Christ.

That is something I DID make a choice for. I don't mean to offend you, but, I will never return to the Roman Catholic church. If by 'catholic' you mean 'universal' as in the body of Christ and not any specific denomination of Christianity, then I am already here!

[Salvation]

**I can’t fathom who made (and approved) the post 1964 translations.**

It was a committee of Bernardin’s boys bishops.

Thank goodness, Pope Benedict is replacing them with REAL Catholic Bishops.

[Salvation]

It’s called the Sacrament of Reconciliation, the Sacrament of Penance. Priests are the only ones who can dispense the absolution. You are correct.

[SkyDancer]

My mistake, I thought it was God through Jesus who forgave our sins .... so who absolves priests? Another priest but then who absolves him? The pope? But who absolves the pope ....

[Enoughofthissocialism]

Your post is diametrically opposed to the four Gospels and the message of Jesus Christ.

That is all. The self-centered, arrogance and ignorance of your post shows you are not worthy of discussing this with. So please just leave me out of your distinctly anti-Christian diatribe. Please don’t post to me. Nothing personal. We just come from opposite ends of the spectrum and nothing good can come from any banter.

[Iscool]

Yet, contrary to our Lord's desire (John 20:21-23; cf. James 5:14-16; 1 John 1:9) and the unanimous teaching and practice of the early Church,

Little problem here...Your early church fathers were not unanimous in their teaching nor their practice...

Fundamentalist or Evangelical Protestants have reduced Christianity to a purely "spiritual" religion.

Do you have any idea where they got that idea??? I do...

They got that idea from the scriptures...They got it from Jesus Christ...

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Prior to the Resurrection, God's Jewish religion and the beginning of His church was physical...After the Resurrection, it is spiritual...It's right there staring you in the face...

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Do you understand that verse??? It's right to the point...It is NOT physically possible for you to be in the physical Kingdom of God...Your church is not God's Kingdom on earth...If it was, Jesus is a liar...And we know better than that...

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Here's another very easy one...You are NOT in the Kingdom of God...The Kingdom of God is within you...Spiritual...Any other view is to deny what Jesus plainly said, like you are saying...

They unwittingly deny that the Church is the Body of Christ, an extension of His very Incarnation based on the "one flesh" relationship between Christ and His Bride (Ephesians 5:25-32).

That is ridiculous...The Spiritual church is the Spiritual body of Christ...We are not yet His bride...We are 'espoused' to be His Bride...We will become the official Bride while religious people are running around in the Tribulation getting their heads removed trying to figure out what happened...