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To: Dutchboy88
Neither the wider context contradicts what I said: chapter 9 does not say that nothing in divine election of Jacob depended on the actions of Jacob -- who after all acted quite a bit on his own behalf to earn his election, at least, from his father. I, on the other hand, never denied that God plays a fundamental role in supplying the grace and leading the elect to their glory.

Another part of the wider context is then the first passages of Roman 2, where St. Paul teaches the role of works presumably undertaken freely, in our justification. In a condensed reprise of Matthew 25, he says:

[God] will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 2)

In the raising of Lazarus Mary and Martha interceded, Apostle Thomas volunteered his own life to persuade Jesus to come to Bethany, and of course Lazarus had earned somehow Jesus's friendship, -- we just don't know the details. It is indeed another example when God in the person of Jesus allowed a period of time for people to act without His divine intervention, and even, it seems, contrary to His expressed wishes.

283 posted on 07/01/2009 2:26:01 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Last to first...

You have manufactured an event around Lazarus that flies in the face of the text. You have Mary & Martha being “rewarded” for their concern by having Lazarus given back to them. The point of the story, however, is Lazarus raised from the dead as a picture of men being dead, helpless, hopeless in their sin. He even waited two more days just to make the scene more dramatic. Why would He do that if it were a reward?

As for Romans 2, if you continued to read on from Chap. 2, you will see that Paul is walking the Italians into a corner. Jews and Gentiles will be judged based upon their works and from that, “...There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.” And on he goes to prove that the Scriptures have taught all along that man is helpless, hopeless, worthy of death based upon their own performance.

Rom. 3:19ff “Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight;...” No one will survive the judgment based upon works. You have that a man could and should choose by his own free will to obey God. If that were possible, he could have performed the Law and eliminated the need for Christ.

You will need to follow the arguments of the writers through to see what concept they are contending for. You have turned these arguments on their heads to prove what they are railing against...self righteousness.

There is no earning of anything connected with righteousness, it is a gift from God. Herein is another distinction between the Catholics and the true Gospel. Rome does not want this to be away from their control. They don’t want faith to be a gift of grace given to whomever Christ chooses, irrespective of merit because then they cannot dictate who would merit. Again, the chains of Rome. Yes, they have a dog in this “free will” fight.


284 posted on 07/01/2009 3:08:19 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: annalex; Dutchboy88
In the raising of Lazarus Mary and Martha interceded, Apostle Thomas volunteered his own life to persuade Jesus to come to Bethany, and of course Lazarus had earned somehow Jesus's friendship, -- we just don't know the details.

Again you ignore the text.

Martha and Mary didn't "intervene." Jesus actually ignored their pleas and waited until Lazarus had died before going to him. Why would He do something seemingly so callous? He tells us why...

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him." -- John 11:14-15

Jesus waited until Lazarus was dead and molding before He went to him so his friends could understand He does not just heal the sick; He brings dead men back to life.

And there is no evidence Lazarus "earned somehow Jesus' friendship" and that's why He brought him back to life. No man can "earn" eternal life. It is a free gift of God's mercy. The RCC just makes stuff up.

292 posted on 07/03/2009 10:54:47 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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