Posted on 05/27/2009 8:53:00 AM PDT by GonzoII
Encoding copyright 2009 by Frederick Manligas Nacino. Some rights reserved. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 http://www.celledoor.com/cpdv-ebe/
Catholics believe in the Trinity and that he is the second person of the Blessed Trinity and is therefore God. The Father is also God and so is the Holy Spirit.
Where?????
Hogwash. [HTTM: HOGWASH TO THE MAX]
You do not have anything resembling the [Roman] Catholic church in Scripture.
You don't have the forbidding of priests to marry,
nor the veneration of Mary,
nor the mass [some will quibble about that!],
nor infant baptism,
nor the primacy of Rome at all.
You have disciples, some single, some married - as Peter was, sharing with independent churches throughout Israel, Asia Minor, and eventually at Rome, being developed by Apostles and other disciples.
You have baptism by immersion of believer's only- something distinctly Baptist.
You have observance of the Lord's supper - not as another sacrifice for sins, but in rememberance of what the Lord did once for all.
You have no evidence of formal confession to a priest, rather Scripture says confess your sins one to another and pray for one another.
Sorry, on the Scriptural argument Catholicism loses.
INDEED. THAT'S WHY they have to lean so hard on !!!!TRADITION!!!! that they end up doing repeated back flips in adoration of !!!!TRADITION!!!! . . . one sometimes wonders . . . while . . . Christ waits patiently for some 1:1 PERSON TO PERSON dialogue.
That is not a defining characteristic of Catholicism as a whole.
nor the veneration of Mary
Luke 1, Luke 11:27, Rev. 12, John 19:26-27 as well as John 2:1-5 motivate our love for Our Blessed Mother and demonstrate her love for us.
the mass
The last supper contains the key words "this is my body, etc."; that we eat Jesus's real body is also explained in John 6. The instruction to priests to "do it" is in Luke 22:19. The sacramental and sacrifical character of the Mass is in 1 Cor. 11.
infant baptism
Surely not prohibited by the scripture; there are several references to baptizing the entire household in the Acts; the analogy with circumcision allows for it. On the other hand, the Church is not opposed to baptism at any age, and requires what you might call believer baptism of adults. Full immersion baptism is encouraged when practical; like you might expect the practice be in arid Palestine, we do not insist on full immersion. It is strange to see such attention to ritualistic detail among the Baptists, by the way.
primacy of Rome
Not a defining Catholic characteristic if you mean it in the geographical sense. Primacy of Peter over other apostles is all over the gospels, hence the papacy.
formal confession to a priest
You agree that confession of sin is mandated by the scripture, but object to "formal" confession. However, the authority to forgive or retain sins so that they stay either forgiven or retained in heaven (John 20:21-23) can only belong to a select organized group.
You can surely offer your own interpretation that is non-Catholic of all these scriptures, but your "You do not have anything resembling the Catholic church in Scripture" betrays a level of ignorance of the Holy Scripture that is unusual in a Baptist.
GREAT POINT.
And I must forcefully walk my fingers away from this thread.
Blessings,
“Mk:16:16: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned.”
Your church interprets “believeth” in a universal way. It does not mean believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, exclusively. Based on the Lumen Gentium, sincere belief on a coke bottle fallen from the sky is enough to get you to wherever or the sincere belief of the Heaven’s Gate cult waiting for the appearance of Comet Hale-Bopp in 1997 got them eternal life somewhere.
It just depends on whoever you sincerely believe God is, could be obama!
In the words of Lumen Gentium, adopted at Vatican II:
“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”
“The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church.”
“The Catholic Church is most clearly described there”,,
Oh please, like Jesus ever described a church-as-government, based in Rome, living like royalty. In truth, the Catholic church is an autocratic offshoot of the true church that existed in Constantinople. The Orthodox Church is the tree, Catholics are a branch. The purpose of their sect was to try to dictate to the first churches. They rejected that. Baptists trace from European Catholicism. Baptists rejected it too.
If you are not orthodox, Baptist is the closest you can be to the first churches. Autonomous, centered in Christ and the individual as worthy to speak with God with no human mediator, and submissive to no man-made hierarchy.
Catholicism is a man made thing,,,designed to control people. And that is what it has done well.
How about their other whopper? *Mary herself* popped down in Mexico City and told Juan Diego that Mexicans should all be Catholic! And thats ok,, But Mormons saying Jesus visited American indians,, THATS just crazy.
Sounds pretty similar to me,,,
Your posts have become incoherent.
This is from Gonzo's anti-Wesley post from yesterday link that Gonzo obviously endorses...
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."
Apparently this is a widespread belief in your religion...And although it may be Catholic, it AIN'T Christian...It is anti-Christian...
Obviously Gonzo is trying to peddle this apostate belief to the masses on FR and who else knows where...
This demonic teaching opens the door for Izlam to join with the Catholic religion...All they have to do is claim to follow the moral teachings of Jesus the Prophet and get baptized...Presto-chango...They are now Muzlim Catholics/Christians...
And this goes for anyone...Just believe in baptism and you will be in the body of Christ...Deception at it's finest...
Beliefs may be ridiculed, the discussion may become contentious.
Posters who are offended by this type of debate should ignore open threads altogether and instead read and post to the "prayer" "devotional" "caucus" or "ecumenical" threads in the Religion Forum.
LOL, yes, I find myself regularly putting my hands in my pockets to refrain from responding to these kinds of posted articles.
Oh well, whatever floats the poster's boat I guess.
Peter wasn’t a pope. Catholics claim that, but the orthdox trace back to him as well. If you forget your Italian, German, French, Spanish, or English heritage, the orthodox view is extremely strong, that the Roman Catholics split away from the Christian church, and not vice versa.
I always use the ‘everything’ feature.
sorry, I guess I need to think up some Catholic bashing posts now.
I think there were some pretty violent Roman Emperors who were popes, whatever a ‘Pope’ is. I don’t remember seeing that word in the Bible either.
Surely not prohibited by the scripture
Not true at all...
Not only are there references in the scripture where Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit WITHOUT water baptism, there is no spot in scripture where one ever gets baptized without FIRST turning to Jesus...
So this practice excludes anyone of any age who does not personally chose to repent (change direction and turn to Jesus) and believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior...
When your tradition contradicts the scriptures, trash the tradition...
lol...
This is your imagination, not any Catholic teaching/doctrine/act.
He wasn't just a pope, he was the first pope, named by Christ Himself.
It's right between Trinity and sola scriptura.
Catholic Tradition does not contradict Scripture, it merely contradicts your own personal interpretation of Scripture.
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