Posted on 05/27/2009 8:53:00 AM PDT by GonzoII
Christ said what He said. The anti-Catholic reinterpretation came later.
Jesus never commissioned or envisioned the Medieval kingdom that is the Roman Church,,, the last surviving European monarchy.
Don't change the subject. I'm talking about the Catholic Church.
Really? How?
St. Ignatius, circa 1500, has about as much authority to comment on what people thought in the 2nd century, as i do for the year 800AD.
And he wouldnt be biased at all,,as a Spanish ROMAN CATHOLIC,,
He’s also famous for slandering the Reformation. Guess he made good money on those indulgences and liked that inquisition thing too, huh>?
I'm giving you some homework, brother!
1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64
For the forgiveness of sins . . .
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67
"A new creature"
1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and co-heir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70
1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."72
1268 The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.
1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78
1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79
The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81
An indelible spiritual mark . . .
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84
1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
1275 Christian initiation is accomplished by three sacraments together: Baptism which is the beginning of new life; Confirmation which is its strengthening; and the Eucharist which nourishes the disciple with Christ's Body and Blood for his transformation in Christ.
1276 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20).
1277 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.
1278 The essential rite of Baptism consists in immersing the candidate in water or pouring water on his head, while pronouncing the invocation of the Most Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
1279 The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.
1280 Baptism imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign, the character, which consecrates the baptized person for Christian worship. Because of the character Baptism cannot be repeated (cf. DS 1609 and DS 1624).
1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).
1282 Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.
1283 With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God's mercy and to pray for their salvation.
1284 In case of necessity, any person can baptize provided that he have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that he pours water on the candidate's head while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
64 Cf. Acts 2:38; Jn 3:5.
65 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1316.
66 Council of Trent (1546): DS 1515.
67 2 Tim 2:5.
68 2 Cor 5:17; 2 Pet 1:4; cf. Gal 4:5-7. 69 Cf. l Cor 6:15; 12:27; Rom 8:17.
70 Cf. l Cor 6:19.
71 Eph 4:25.
72 1 Cor 12:13.
73 1 Pet 2:5.
74 1 Pet 2:9.
75 Cf. 1 Cor 6:19; 2 Cor 5:15.
76 Heb 13:17.
77 Cf. Eph 5:21; 1 Cor 16:15-16; 1 Thess 5:12-13; Jn 13:12-15.
78 Cf. LG 37; CIC, cann. 208 223; CCEO, can. 675:2.
79 LG 11; cf. LG 17; AG 7; 23.
80 UR 3.
81 UR 22 # 2.
82 Cf. Rom 8:29; Council of Trent (1547): DS 1609-1619.
83 Cf. LG 11.
84 Cf. LG 10.
85 St. Augustine, Ep. 98, 5: PL 33, 362; Eph 4:30; cf. 1:13-14; 2 Cor 1:21-22.
86 St. Irenaeus, Dem ap. 3: SCh 62, 32.
87 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 97.
Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm#VII
“Congratulations! You agree with the Catholic Church”
No, I don’t confess my sins to a Catholic priest because he can’t forgive them. And I don’t pray to Mary or the saints.
Revelation 1; 5-6 says we are all priests.
“and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.”
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the FatherMany other early Church fathers wrote of the primacy of the Roman Church:
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric [... st. Ireneauscontinues to describe the apostolic succession of the Roman Church]
I can believe you, or I can believe Christ.
I think I'll stick with Christ, thanks.
And I don’t pray to Mary or the saints.
But as you have said, you do use other mediators.
Details, details...
They’re not dead.
Where in scripture does Jesus say a Catholic priest can forgive sins, ? If you believe Christ, then don’t go to a confessional ever again. You too can talk directly to God !
You’re also twisting my words. I may ask other believers to pray for me, but I don’t pray to them to pray for me.
Other believers that pray for me are not mediators, they are not middlemen between me and God, they simply make requests in prayer for me, in the name of Jesus.
“which also presides in the place of the *region of the Romans*”
Ya might want to google a map of the area that was the Region of the Romans in the 2nd century there. People in Asia Minor in the 2nd century would have been surprised and amused at the idea that they were not “Romans”.
While you’re doing that, ill try to find where the orthodox church tortured people on an industrial scale with official blessings, and codified rules. So far im only finding people suspected of being Orthodox as being tortured by Roman Catholic inquistions. Catholics were one violent murderous bunch back then,,, Orthodox Christianity wasn’t,, thats also another hint who was following the teaching of Jesus.
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Matthew 16:18-19
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
I may ask other believers to pray for me, but I don’t pray to them to pray for me.
Pray means ask.
...they simply make requests in prayer for me, in the name of Jesus.
Just like Mary and the other Saints.
Im thinking theres some verse where Jesus said that “the water is now wine”,,, but Saint la-di-da, says that really means the priest must pray for you.
Its amazing,,Jesus is always very clear with his words on everything. But when he intends to set up an earthly kingdom complete with a labyrinthian set of rules and rituals, its all done with a passing comment so broad that it could mean anything.
Oh,, and one of the most important things Christ left as a legacy,,his church, only appears in Matthew, interesting.
John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.
St. Ignatius was himself bishop of Antioch, so clearly he did not include his own church in that praise. Besides, he writes about presiding, which means authority concentrated in one place, Rome. If you read the letter further, you will find that he also describes the Roman church as not envying anyone, so he is making comparisons between local churches.
The Holy Inquisition is indeed a specifically Roman Catholic effort, but that happened way after the Great Schism.
Details, details... "
Mt:22:32: "I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Heb:12:1: "And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us"
Rv:6:9: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (Holy and True), dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Mk:9:4: "And there appeared to them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus."
LOL !
That the "mere" pouring of water is not just an outward sign but it has actual effects.
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