Did God Speak at Mt. Sinai?

'Aish HaTorah ^ | Not dated | Rabbi Nechemia Coopersmith and Rabbi Moshe Zeldman

[Zionist Conspirator]

This weekend is Shavu`ot, so it's time for my annual posting of this article.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Shavu`ot ping!

The only absolutely verifiable and objective Divine Revelation in history, on which all other claimants stand or fall!

[Constitutions Grandchild]

I'm Christian and I had always heard that G-d spoke to all the people who were so afraid because it was so loud, they begged Moses to make it stop and to go up on the mountain and speak to G-d for them all. He did so — at their request — and when he returned he had to wear a veil over his face he was so radiant.

Guess, I was ahead of the curve or that 95 percent retention rate of all I read helped out a lot. I thought everybody knew that.

[Alex Murphy]

The above answers come from Cecil B. DeMille's classic film, "The Ten Commandments." Amazing the impact one movie can have on the Jewish education of generations of Jews. It's a great film, but DeMille should have read the original.

Great thread, Z-C

[Constitutions Grandchild]

Oh, and while Moses was gone, because they were so unnerved from their last encounter with G-d, they thought he'd been killed during his visit on the mountain top, so they thought they were alone and abandoned and THAT’s when they returned to the gods of Egypt and forced poor Aaron to make the golden calf.

[Egon]

Ping.

[TFMcGuire]

That the Revelation was national in character is correct.

But Ex. 20:18-22 is antecedent to the decalogue given in the first of the chapter.

The people were terrified of Elohim and requested that Moses speak to them in God’s stead. Moses went up into the thick darkness and spoke with God and received the message for Israel. He alone received the 10 Commanments and faithfully delivered them to the people.

They didn’t start the idolatry until the very end of the forty day period when they despaired of Moses returning and fell back into former sin patterns.

DeMille made a lot of Scriptural errors but this is not one of them.

[Tao Yin]

The only absolutely verifiable and objective Divine Revelation in history, on which all other claimants stand or fall!

I don't really follow the logic here. How is this absolutely verifiable? Generations after the fact, a book says an event happens. This event reinforces the nationalistic identify of being God's chosen people. How do we know what people of the time were thinking? What parent would deny or contradict the priests or holy writings? A single generation after the Torah was first used, the story would be self reinforcing. Any doubt would be silent or silenced. Fast forward to today, thousands of years after the fact, why does this account for absolute verifiability?

[ml/nj]

Thanks. I think this is going to be one of our discussion topics on Thrsday night.

ML/NJ

[jeffc]

BM to read all of it later. Looks good!

[Zionist Conspirator]

I don't really follow the logic here. How is this absolutely verifiable? Generations after the fact, a book says an event happens. This event reinforces the nationalistic identify of being God's chosen people. How do we know what people of the time were thinking? What parent would deny or contradict the priests or holy writings? A single generation after the Torah was first used, the story would be self reinforcing. Any doubt would be silent or silenced. Fast forward to today, thousands of years after the fact, why does this account for absolute verifiability?

Did you read the article?

The point is that the story of the Revelation could not have been introduced later without being exposed as a fraud.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Oh, and while Moses was gone, because they were so unnerved from their last encounter with G-d, they thought he'd been killed during his visit on the mountain top, so they thought they were alone and abandoned and THAT’s when they returned to the gods of Egypt and forced poor Aaron to make the golden calf.

Kinda explains Abe Foxman, doesn't it?

[Constitutions Grandchild]

So, who's Abe Foxman? Sorry, I don't get out much. ;-)

[SJackson]

Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you'd like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

[Tao Yin]

I did read the article and I did do an internet search. Interesting reading but pseudo logic.

Moses lived about 1500 BC. As far back as 800 BC, neither Israel nor Judah was truly monotheistic. About 600 BC, monotheism ascended and subsidiary cult centers were wiped out. Soon after, the book of Deuteronomy was rediscovered in the Temple of Judah.

I'm not sure how this follows. So let's sum up the argument... The ruler Josiah supported monotheism, suppressed opposition, and the religious center in Jerusalem put it's weight behind a holy book. In the holy book was a story almost 1000 years old that talks about a divine revelation to all the Jewish people. This story didn't destroy the rulers and powerful people so therefor the story must be true.

That's a weak and pitiful argument and does not constitute absolute verifiability.

[Buggman]

Even then, they weren't returning to the gods of Egypt, just to the traditions of Egypt. After making the calf, Aaron declared the next day to be "a Feast to the LORD." It was trying to make an idol of the Holy One not abandoning the Holy One which brought judgment.

Shalom.

[JesusBmyGod]

Thanks for the ping, excellent article.

[onedoug]

It’s interesting that The Jews are still here, as a viable people long after so many of their early contemporaries are dust...and that their homeland is Israel, which has never been the sovereign of anyone else.

Torah also ties to modern science remarkably well.

“Gi’me that ol’ time religion!”

[Ancesthntr]

The only absolutely verifiable and objective Divine Revelation in history, on which all other claimants stand or fall!

That fact simply cannot be repeated too many times.

G-d not only gave us the capacity to believe, but the capacity to reason. BOTH are necessary. The Revelation at Mt. Sinai is something that illustrates this in the most profound way possible. You can believe it, but belief, faith, is a fragile thing. There's always room for doubt (as there MUST be - because without doubt there is no free will, and existence is pointless from a theological point of view). No, here there is a great degree of rationality involved - the event HAD to have occurred, there is NO OTHER RATIONAL EXPLANATION (because, let me tell you, choosing to live according to the words of the Torah is no easy thing, and NO ONE would do so merely to perpetuate a hoax that would only have benefits hundreds or thousands of years later).

[Ancesthntr]

I don't really follow the logic here. How is this absolutely verifiable? Generations after the fact, a book says an event happens. This event reinforces the nationalistic identify of being God's chosen people. How do we know what people of the time were thinking? What parent would deny or contradict the priests or holy writings? A single generation after the Torah was first used, the story would be self reinforcing. Any doubt would be silent or silenced. Fast forward to today, thousands of years after the fact, why does this account for absolute verifiability?

As ZC mentioned, the article shows that introducing it later would be an easily-detected fraud. Further, what you don't realize is that the more time which passed, the less unified the Jewish People were (generally speaking, there are some exceptions). Introducing such a claim at or near a time of partisan bickering would have resulted in someone getting stoned as a charlatan, not in the adoption of a new national myth.

Would you believe a story that only came to light now that an angel appeared at the Continental Congress, and again at the Constitutional Convention, in order to inspire the founders to revolt and structure our government a certain way? No, probably not. Why? Because you have never heard of such a thing, and it is soooo tall a tale that you WOULD HAVE heard about it before if it did really happen.