Radio Replies Volume One: Wesley

iCatholicism.net ^ | 1938 | Fathers Rumble & Carty

[GonzoII]

Wesley

308. What is your attitude towards John Wesley?

Wesley was a good and sincere man, but he was mistaken in his notion of Christianity. It was evil that he should have created a further sect. Yet because he and his followers were sincere God blessed their goodwill in many things, drawing good from their work in spite of the undoubted evil of preaching erroneous doctrines as if they were indeed the true doctrines of Christ. Meantime God wills for Wesleyans the greater good still of a return to the Catholic Church.

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[Dr. Eckleburg]

[jagusafr]

In Wesley’s day, the Church of England was (and still is, I assume) divided into parishes, and one of the first and strongest criticisms of him was that he was poaching in other parishes when he preached in the fields and in the streets of towns outside his prescribed area (his parish). His response was what I quoted, and stemmed from his disgust at the church’s failure to tend its own flock. Parochialism (protecting one’s turf) for the sake of parochialism is also something the Catholic Church has done and still does. Protecting the flock from false teaching is admirable; however, it’s also incumbent upon the person “in charge” of that parish to actively tend it. That’s what Wesley was so incensed about, and why he went out and preached to whoever would listen.

Did I make sense (even if there’s disagreement)?

[SoConPubbie]

No offense taken and I agree with your take on the matter and Wesley’s approach.

Parochalism is a hindrence to the Gospel not a help.

[SoConPubbie]

Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

You've taken something out of context and have not applied basic gospel principles.

Just because someone is baptized does not mean they are going to heaven.

Jesus described the path to heaven in John Chapter 3:

1  There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9  Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10  Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.



So we see, from scripture in Jesus's own words in context, that faith or believing God is the primary prerequisite to salvation, not baptism.

Furthermore, until a child reaches an age of accountability, that child automatically goes to Heaven because of the Grace and Mercy of God.

After they reach the age of accountability (and I am sure that is different for every human being and only God himself knows what this is for each human being), each and every human being that desires to make heaven will have to follow God's path of Repentence and Faith.

[SoConPubbie]

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

No, Baptism does not save.

We are born-again, and thus saved from sin and put on the path to heaven through repentence and faith as the Gospel account shows. See John chapter 3.

[SoConPubbie]

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

How do you arrive at the position that "Those far off" refers to children and infants?

[SoConPubbie]

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

So?

I have been a Protestant my whole life and have never heard a Preacher, layman, or a member of any Protestant congregation say anything that would be at odds with these scriptures nor can you make a logical, in context case that somehow Protestant theology is incorrect with regards to these scriptures.

[SoConPubbie]

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

It is a logical fallacy to try and use the practices of the CATHOLIC church as proof that their practices prove they are correct.

[GonzoII]

"No, Baptism does not save."

1Pt:3:21: "Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you "

[SoConPubbie]

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

I am dumbstruck by the logical fallacy of inserting both human tradition and human logic to try and come to a conclusion that is not supported by scripture.

I guess your next illogical extension will be to use the same idea to support praying people out of Purgatory, right?

[SoConPubbie]

"No, Baptism does not save."

1Pt:3:21: "Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you "

If you are going to use or quote scripture to support your position you need to use it in context.

You forgot to include the previous verses that show that the Baptism that Peter was referring to was Christ's Resurection (see verse 18 below) from the dead. Here is all of the scripture including the part you left out.

18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

[GonzoII]

"If you are going to use or quote scripture to support your position you need to use it in context."

The context clearly shows salvation by "water" i.e. baptism.

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[SoConPubbie]

The context clearly shows salvation by "water" i.e. baptism.

No sir, you are incorrect.

The context clearly regards the baptism that Christ suffered when he died and rose again, much as Baptism is clearly a reflection of that same resurrection but in putting in it's stead sin for death.

[SoConPubbie]

So what will it be GonzoII,

Will you believe Jesus when he declaritively, without reservation, and with no other path given to Heaven state: “You must be born again”?

Or are you going to hold to your illogical position that runs counter to the command of Jesus that you can be saved by Baptism alone.

It cannot be both.

[GonzoII]

"So what will it be GonzoII,"

Mk:16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned."

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Iscool]

Mk:16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned."

You keep posting this verse...What do you see that we don't???

[Marysecretary]

Yep. That’s what they do.

[Marysecretary]

He and his brother, Charles, wrote some of the great hymns of the faith as well.

[Marysecretary]

Amen, SoCon.